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Old July 9th 08, 01:28 AM posted to,,,uk.rec.walking,rec.running
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Default Treadmill advice needed

"Steve Freides" wrote in message
"DrollTroll" wrote in message

"Steve Freides" wrote in message
"DrollTroll" wrote in message

"Steve Freides" wrote in message
wrote in message

I am thinking about buying my first treadmill. My family and I are
a very, very tight budget and we are counting every penny so this is
huge decision for us and I need some help in deciding which one to

I am 6 foot 3 (189cm) for 252 pounds (115kgs) and I need to walk for
about 30min on a daily basis to loose weight. The climate where I
live makes outdoor walking impossible most of the year and, besides,
need to stay at home to watch for the kids. I do not plan to run on
the treadmill, only walk, initially slowly (I am very much out of
shape), but eventually at a brisk pace to get a good aerobic

I have been initially tempted to buy the NordicTrack C2155 ( )

But the newer NordicTrack A2350 looks even better to me (

My questions to you a

1) Do NordicTrack treadmills have a good reputation?
2) What do you think of the two models I am considering?
3) Can you think of a better (as in value for the money) deal than
these NordicTrack treadmills?

Many thanks for any pointers!


Google the phrase strength-endurance, and don't settle for just a
treadmill. Google also "ross budget training" and read his web site.
There are a ton of things one can do, at home, for little or no money,
to build both strength and conditioning, and certainly for well less
than the cost of a treadmill of any sort.

My choice would be a kettlebell plus the book "Enter The Kettlebell"
by Pavel Tsatsouline - the combination will cost you about $200 and is
widely available. Or buy yourself a screw-on dumbbell set at the
local mega-mart plus a jump rope - that combination will cost you $50.
Or any of a thousand other things. Just say no to the dishonor of
dieting and aerobics and get stronger _and_ well-conditioned
instead - and lose weight while doing it.

As usual, Friedes is partially right in his obs/recs, but has so far to
go as yet in trying to get over himself, that the correct stuff is
often unrecognizable, buried beneath his sundry personal issues and

Personal attacks serve no purpose, so stick to the issues at hand.

Dude, I thought I was oh-ficially kill-filed by you, as you most often
completely ignore what I say in a given thread, and blindly post yer own
stuff, often just repeating what I said--further evidence of your
But since you ARE apparently reading my stuff, I'll tone down the
insults--at least the gratuitous ones.

A couple of times a year or so, I empty all my killfiles - everyone
deserves a second chance, even you, although based on this dialogue, I'm
not sure how long you're going to last.

He is right that walking is perhaps a middling approach to complete
fitness, but it is an excellent beginning, certainly a very convenient
tool, and actually capable of burning a lot of calories. And possibly a
requisite beginning for many people.
I myself walk 2-4 hours/week, brisk and up-hill (both ways!), in
preference to running in summers. In winter, the emphasis is more on

I walk quite a bit as well, e.g., I walked about 4 miles yesterday with
my wife in two outings, the first a mile each way to a local farmers
market and home with produce, the second an evening visit to a friend a
mile each way. It is a lovely thing to do, and sufficient for many
purposes, e.g., the elderly, but I assume our original poster is middle
aged or younger because he/she did not indicate otherwise.

But clearly not ready for Ross training--re-read his post.

You continue to put words into my mouth. I didn't say he should do
everything on the video, just look at it because it has good ideas about
training inexpensively for a wide variety of goals.

Nothing wrong with aerobics, nothing wrong with dieting, when done
intelligently and in context.
As a culture, we just eat too goddammuch anyway, and the zeitgeist of
"revving up our metabolisms" so's we can eat even *more* is just effing
ludicrous, profligate, and reprobate. And immoral.

I am a big believer in weights and HIT, but everything in time.
The site Friedes refers to is, and it is indeed an
excellent site--altho pretty intense stuff, but which you can always
tailor for yourself.

If you look at the cultures renowned for their longevity and health,
walking/hiking/carrying/herding is likely the full extent of their
"exercise"--they just do lots of it.

Also, if you are going to go the eventual weight-route, forget about
Friedes and his obsession with effing kettlebells.
KBs certainly aren't bad, but *nary a person on this planet* can
rationally explain why KBs are *at all* better than dumbbells, save for
one or two possible moves.

Whilst there are a litany of people who can cogently argue why
dumbbells are FAR better than KBs.
DBs serve the same basic function--resistance-- but are *far* more
versatile, more economical, more ergonomic, more use-able..... you get
the idea.
But Friedes doesn't. And never will.

You miss the point entirely. No one says kettlebells are better or
worse. Read my reply again - it begins with the words "my choice would

And why would that be your choice, *if you didn't believe KBs were
Are you now adding disingenuousness to your repertoire?

You are again assuming everyone looks at the world the way you do. I
don't assume that my choices are right for everyone. I am happy with my
choices for me so, sure, you could say I think kettlebell training is the
best way to go about it - for me. I don't suggest further than that. I
mention it because many people aren't aware of the type of training I do
and its potential benefits - as many people aren't aware of the type of
training Ross does and its benefits. A newsgroup's purpose, IMHO, is to
provide information - armed with information, everyone can and should make
their own choices.

I will say *flat out* that dumbbells are superior to kettlebells, for
most applications/users.

Then you will be much more dogmatic than me. My training includes
kettlebells, a chinup bar, a barbell, some jump stretch bands, rings, and
even dumbbells once in a while. I don't consider any of them "superior"
because the question is "superior for what?" Who is stronger, a
powerlifter or an Olympic lifter? It depends on which activity you ask
them to do? Who is stronger, a Tour de France cyclist or a strongman
competitor? Again, it depends on what you will use for your test. There
is no "superior" to be had here. Surely no one would hire an architect
who said "this design is best for everyone." Likewise, I recommend
strongly that no one take training advice from anyone who says one
particular tool is superior to all others - each has their place, and each
has multiple uses. There are many, many good training approaches out
there, as there are many ineffective ones.

The difference between you and me is

1. I'm not wrapped up in fukn mystical Medievil Russia fantasyland, and
all its kettlebell soldier trappings, like some child playing with toy

Again, personal attacks do nothing but discredit your point of view here.

2. I can defend my statements in some detail, and

Neither of us has gone into any great detail about the benefits of any
particular kind of training, nor do I think we need to until asked.
Suffice it to say I can also defend my statements when and if I feel it's

3. I'm not selling either dumbbells or kettlebells.

That is your wish. You can read, on my web site, about the commercial
aspect of what I do, such as it is. In brief, I don't sell anything, but
I do make a commission from web sales that I point to the DragonDoor site.
Needless to say, I hope, I do other things for a living. Mostly I am a
classical musician, teaching at the college level and privately, and
performing occasionally as well. I also am a part-time personal trainer,
but I do not follow the usual model - I teach exercise like I teach music,
giving lessons no more often than once a week and expecting my students to
practice on their own. You and anyone may read reviews of me as an
instructor, hosted on the DragonDoor site, via a link from my main web

and I assume the original poster doesn't need your help to figure out
that he/she may have a different opinion. I shared mine and I'm not
bashful about doing that.

But, the OP DOES need YOUR help, right?? please.......

No, the OP asked a question on a newsgroup and, this being a free place to
exchange ideas, I offered mine. Whether or not they're helpful is up to
the OP.

That you seem to feel my opinion carries the weight of some religious

It DOES! See (1) above.

Would you care to enlighten us as to who you are, what expertise and/or
experience you bring to this discussion, and provide any evidence of the
point of view you espouse having worked for you? I have done all that and
more and continue to do so on a regular basis.

insult mode largely off

your Why Kettlebells page on your site

You cannot intelligently or credibly ask Why Kettlebells without immediately
following up with Why Not Dumbbells.
Or preferably, dispensing with the exclusionary tact, address an unbiased
Perspective on KBs and DBs.

Just from pure academic and conceptual povs, which presumably you hold dear
to your heart, the total absence of even a *mention* of dumbbells on your
Why Kettlebells page is a glaring omission. And is inconsistent with your
"holistic" approach to training--or at least of your claims thereof.

Oh, yeah, you *did* mention dumbbells:
"These concepts can and should be applied to all exercise but it's
easy to be mindless when you're on a treadmill or exercise bicycle or
swinging lightweight dumbells or pushing the lever on a machine."

That is an utterly irresponsible misrepresentation of dumbbells. And of
treadmills, for that matter.

And, I hate to say it, but the whole page is littered with non-sequiturs,
false innuendo, and unwarranted slurs to aerobic methods.
Really not worthy of a self-professed acadamician, esp one who professes a
multi-method "holistic" approach to fitness.

I myself have experimented at some length with squeezing aerobic effects out
of anaerobic techniques, and indeed it can be done--very successfully, and
in a number of regards superior-ly to aerobic methods themselves.
One cannot even *attempt* the "aerobicizing of the anaerobic" without very
specific concepts in biomechanics and physiology, none of which are evident
on your site.
So your implicit/explicit implications that "KBs can do it all" really don't
have a rational basis.

And, my own methods/successes notwithstanding, running/walking *still* hold
a special place in the CV arena.
And altho I myself am not a fan of treadmills, HRMs, and all the rest,
nevertheless in many many cases, they can be useful and/or the best
compromise, the best solution to the fitness problem, as the situation might
currently stand.

Your slurs, direct and indirect, by comission and by omission, are simply
not responsible, and thus do not further the cause of a rational general

It is also a dicey proposition to hold one's self up as an example of the
validity of a method--any method--as this is essentially the fallacy of
arguments pro hominem.

Much better to hold court on a contextual strategy for as many methods as
one feels competent in, and simply point to your own regimen as one possible
example, that happens to have brought you success.

At worst, some could call you a shill for DragonDoor;
At best, it would seem you have simply not given other methods their
contextual perspective and fair shake, esp. regarding dumbbells.

I personally don't view you as a shill for DD, and believe your intentions
are sincere and good, but I also think you are not nearly as intellectually
open and neutral as you think you are.
An academic who winds up treating his subject unacademically inherently
shoots himself in the foot.

As you may or may not know, I *make* exercise apparatus, up until now on a
custom and prototype basis, but soon to be in production. I even make an
item adaptable for KBs!

And I of course think my stuff is Da Bomb, but I endorse all legitimate
venues (which pretty much excludes all ab products and other infomercial
junk), *including KBs*, but with the perennial footnote that some venues,
products, strategies, etc. deliver *inherently* more bang fer yer exercise
buck (time, money, energy, drama, versatility, etc.) than others.

Dumbbells are one of the products/strategies that inherently deliver more
bang for most users' bucks than other alternatives, such as rubber bands
and, in this case, KBs.
Not because KBs are bad, but rather because they are inherently more
specialized, being asymmetric in their gripping method.

I think it is clear that all of Pavel's methods are immediately adaptable to
DBs, and the responsible thing would be to acknowledge this.
IOW, Pavel's methods and KBs are really two different things.

A weight, when all is said and done, is a weight.
The real issue is then, How convenient is it to use a given embodiment of a

Just a quick running note and example of said embodiment:

Running with KBs would be virtually impossible.

But, Leonard Schwartz's HeavyHands (yes, running with those mindless
lightweight dumbbells you mention on your Why KettleBells page) is one of
the best whole-body conditioning systems ever formalized.

Just one example of inherent dumbbell versatility, AND an example of how an
ostensibly anaerobic tool can quite enhance the aerobic.

His 1982 book is one of the best in popular fitness ever written. Really an

But you don't see fit to mention any of this anywhere on your site....

The OP would do very well for himself to read this book. The method is
quite do-able on a treadmill.