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How can I become better in speed skating ?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 27th 03, 11:25 PM
Lyle McDonald
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Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

Phil Earnhardt wrote:

In article ,
http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/abstudy_index.cfm

For me, the stability ball is an ideal tool to train for skating; it can
be extremely challenging.


That's a very cool study. My respect for the ACE folks went up a couple of
notches with this material. I presume that word about this is getting out
about this at their conferences. I was also stuck that the non-ball exercises
that were recommended in this study all look very similar to basic exercises
in the Pilates mat routines.

I predict it will take at least 10 years to kill off the notion that
crunches are the definitive way to build abs/core strength.


And 10 more to kill the idea that there is anything but a very limited
carryover from the activities done on ball to any other activity.

Lyle
  #2  
Old July 27th 03, 11:51 PM
Phil Earnhardt
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Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

In article ,
Lyle McDonald wrote:
I predict it will take at least 10 years to kill off the notion that
crunches are the definitive way to build abs/core strength.


And 10 more to kill the idea that there is anything but a very limited
carryover from the activities done on ball to any other activity.


Interesting.

Rather than have everyone waste a decade, could please tell us why you
think the core skills/strength developed on a swiss ball have limited
applicability to other activities?

Also, please tell us what you think that people should be doing
instead. Do you also feel that core-oriented Pilates work is a waste
of time? Or is this only about core work on a ball?

Lyle


--phil

  #3  
Old July 27th 03, 11:51 PM
Phil Earnhardt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

In article ,
Lyle McDonald wrote:
I predict it will take at least 10 years to kill off the notion that
crunches are the definitive way to build abs/core strength.


And 10 more to kill the idea that there is anything but a very limited
carryover from the activities done on ball to any other activity.


Interesting.

Rather than have everyone waste a decade, could please tell us why you
think the core skills/strength developed on a swiss ball have limited
applicability to other activities?

Also, please tell us what you think that people should be doing
instead. Do you also feel that core-oriented Pilates work is a waste
of time? Or is this only about core work on a ball?

Lyle


--phil

  #6  
Old July 28th 03, 04:58 AM
Lyle McDonald
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

Phil Earnhardt wrote:

In article ,
Keith Hobman wrote:
I do know the 'core' muscles are indeed strengthened by the use of
Swiss Balls and things like the Overball. Honestly. And many of the
ball exercises demand that you recruit most/all of the core muscles in
order to do the exercises. I would indeed be interested in how
Mr. McDonald came to the conclusion that the carryover of that
strength and proprioception to other activities would be "very limited".


He reads the studies. Carryover is very specific to neural recruitment
patterns. The idea of there being carryover from an inherently unstable
platform to other activities done on stable platforms is a stretch.


Well, we are talking about speedskating, which is hardly an activity
done on a stable platform.


And how does laying on (your back on) a ball in any way, shape, fashion
or form mimic stabilizing yourself (standing on one foot) on a speed skate?

If you answered: not at all, you're on the right track.

This is the mistake the ball folks are making: thinking that there is
some generalizable 'balance' characteristic that can be trained with no
attention to specificity.

Now, I could see standing on a wobble board one footed as a way to
improve your ability to stabilize the ankle. useful considering the
amount of time (double push excluded) you spend on one foot and you
would expect some carryover. Doing one legged squats (inherently less
stable than a 2 legged squat) or step ups or what have you would help
teach stabilization of the knee and hip. Useful considering how much
time you spend on one leg in the glide phase. Again, you would expect
some carryover.

Unless you intend to spend a great deal of time during your skating
lying on your back (in which case you have crashed), ball work is going
to be at best useless; at worst a waste of training time that could have
been spent more productively.

Also: is was the premise of Mr. Hudson that the more (most?) effective
core exercise is slant-board sit-ups. Do you agree with that? If so,
what's the reasoning behind the claim?


Nah, Hudson's a retard and slant board sit ups are a ****ty exercise.

I crossposted this bit of nonsense so Keith and Wayne could have a crack
at you.

I would feel exactly the opposite. Exercises where you're strapping
yourself down would inherently limit the amount of core you have to
recruit to keep your balance.


Its not about balance.


Most ab work is a waste of time. You want a good core workout, do heavy
squats without a belt. Your TVA will get more work from that than just
about anything else. Low back strength/muscular endurance is about a
billion times more important to speed skating performance than ab
strength/ME any day.

Definitely is. This thread started in rec.sport.skating.racing.
Mr. McDonald added the weight lifting newsgroup.


Why yes, yes I did.
For the reasons above.

Yes! It is a lot of fashionable nonsense!

Not exactly what I would call an erudite statement. Someone worried
about "honest" comments should strive to avoid such flippant quips.

And the statement makes little sense: Pilates has been around for the
better part of 100 years.


Better part is accurate.


Thank you. The point is clear: it's hardly the latest fad.


Along with a lot of other goofy crap, Pilates simply refuses to die.

Pilates is a good program, but they are making
a lot of invalid claims. eg. It can create long muscles.


In many exercises, it emphasizes the eccentric contraction of the
muscles. Do you have an issue with that?


BTW, pedantic note: eccentric contraction is a contradiction in terms.

Again, specificity is key. Eccentric muscle actions make you better at
doing eccentrics, concentric muscle actions make you better at doing
concentrics, isometric muscle actions make you better at isometrics
(note: there is some carryover of course). So whether or not the
eccentric emphasis of pilates is useful or not depends entirely on context.

Lyle
  #7  
Old July 28th 03, 04:58 AM
Lyle McDonald
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

Phil Earnhardt wrote:

In article ,
Keith Hobman wrote:
I do know the 'core' muscles are indeed strengthened by the use of
Swiss Balls and things like the Overball. Honestly. And many of the
ball exercises demand that you recruit most/all of the core muscles in
order to do the exercises. I would indeed be interested in how
Mr. McDonald came to the conclusion that the carryover of that
strength and proprioception to other activities would be "very limited".


He reads the studies. Carryover is very specific to neural recruitment
patterns. The idea of there being carryover from an inherently unstable
platform to other activities done on stable platforms is a stretch.


Well, we are talking about speedskating, which is hardly an activity
done on a stable platform.


And how does laying on (your back on) a ball in any way, shape, fashion
or form mimic stabilizing yourself (standing on one foot) on a speed skate?

If you answered: not at all, you're on the right track.

This is the mistake the ball folks are making: thinking that there is
some generalizable 'balance' characteristic that can be trained with no
attention to specificity.

Now, I could see standing on a wobble board one footed as a way to
improve your ability to stabilize the ankle. useful considering the
amount of time (double push excluded) you spend on one foot and you
would expect some carryover. Doing one legged squats (inherently less
stable than a 2 legged squat) or step ups or what have you would help
teach stabilization of the knee and hip. Useful considering how much
time you spend on one leg in the glide phase. Again, you would expect
some carryover.

Unless you intend to spend a great deal of time during your skating
lying on your back (in which case you have crashed), ball work is going
to be at best useless; at worst a waste of training time that could have
been spent more productively.

Also: is was the premise of Mr. Hudson that the more (most?) effective
core exercise is slant-board sit-ups. Do you agree with that? If so,
what's the reasoning behind the claim?


Nah, Hudson's a retard and slant board sit ups are a ****ty exercise.

I crossposted this bit of nonsense so Keith and Wayne could have a crack
at you.

I would feel exactly the opposite. Exercises where you're strapping
yourself down would inherently limit the amount of core you have to
recruit to keep your balance.


Its not about balance.


Most ab work is a waste of time. You want a good core workout, do heavy
squats without a belt. Your TVA will get more work from that than just
about anything else. Low back strength/muscular endurance is about a
billion times more important to speed skating performance than ab
strength/ME any day.

Definitely is. This thread started in rec.sport.skating.racing.
Mr. McDonald added the weight lifting newsgroup.


Why yes, yes I did.
For the reasons above.

Yes! It is a lot of fashionable nonsense!

Not exactly what I would call an erudite statement. Someone worried
about "honest" comments should strive to avoid such flippant quips.

And the statement makes little sense: Pilates has been around for the
better part of 100 years.


Better part is accurate.


Thank you. The point is clear: it's hardly the latest fad.


Along with a lot of other goofy crap, Pilates simply refuses to die.

Pilates is a good program, but they are making
a lot of invalid claims. eg. It can create long muscles.


In many exercises, it emphasizes the eccentric contraction of the
muscles. Do you have an issue with that?


BTW, pedantic note: eccentric contraction is a contradiction in terms.

Again, specificity is key. Eccentric muscle actions make you better at
doing eccentrics, concentric muscle actions make you better at doing
concentrics, isometric muscle actions make you better at isometrics
(note: there is some carryover of course). So whether or not the
eccentric emphasis of pilates is useful or not depends entirely on context.

Lyle
  #8  
Old July 28th 03, 05:05 AM
Keith Hobman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

In article ,
(Phil Earnhardt) wrote:

In article ,
Keith Hobman wrote:
I do know the 'core' muscles are indeed strengthened by the use of
Swiss Balls and things like the Overball. Honestly. And many of the
ball exercises demand that you recruit most/all of the core muscles in
order to do the exercises. I would indeed be interested in how
Mr. McDonald came to the conclusion that the carryover of that
strength and proprioception to other activities would be "very limited".


He reads the studies. Carryover is very specific to neural recruitment
patterns. The idea of there being carryover from an inherently unstable
platform to other activities done on stable platforms is a stretch.


Well, we are talking about speedskating, which is hardly an activity
done on a stable platform.


You've never hit the ice? Very stable platform. I've played hockey all
my life and I can tell you it doesn't have much give at all.

I suspect that it might be because the 'ball' is too comfortable, and
that it probably gives assistance through 'bounce' - however marginal!

I don't know what this means. The balls are constantly
challenging your balance -- causing you to engage your core muscles.


Exactly why it doesn't carryover, unless you are doing your activities
in an earthquake.


See above.

Also: is was the premise of Mr. Hudson that the more (most?) effective
core exercise is slant-board sit-ups. Do you agree with that? If so,
what's the reasoning behind the claim?


No. The whole idea of core training is very trendy right now, but even
so slant board sit-ups are only an abdominal/hip exercise.

I would feel exactly the opposite. Exercises where you're strapping
yourself down would inherently limit the amount of core you have to
recruit to keep your balance.


Its not about balance.


Definitely is. This thread started in rec.sport.skating.racing.
Mr. McDonald added the weight lifting newsgroup.


Core exercises have little to do with balance.

Yes! It is a lot of fashionable nonsense!

Not exactly what I would call an erudite statement. Someone worried
about "honest" comments should strive to avoid such flippant quips.

And the statement makes little sense: Pilates has been around for the
better part of 100 years.


Better part is accurate.


Thank you. The point is clear: it's hardly the latest fad.

Pilates is a good program, but they are making
a lot of invalid claims. eg. It can create long muscles.


In many exercises, it emphasizes the eccentric contraction of the
muscles. Do you have an issue with that?


No. The same thing could be said many exercises. Which is hardly good
for speed skaing where the load is applied after a stretch reflex and
concentrically. This is what you want to train - not eccentric loading.

I've come into this midway. But doing the ball exercises and things like
balance boards and expecting a carryover into speed skating is a push at
best and a complete waste of time at worst.

If the question is as stated - how to become a better speed skater and
the quaestion is what out-of-scope training will make you a better
speed-skater than ball exercises and Pilates are very ineffective.

For the start in speed skating much better training would be box squat
using bands and chains, split snatches or split jerks and
glute/ham/gastroc raises. They will specifically develop an explosive
start using a neural pattern applicable to speedskating. They also
strengthen the core - try snatching and dropping into the split position.

I'd also do jumps of various types - broad jumps, single legged broad
jumps and jump ups.

For endurance various types of high intensity interval training would
apply and the duration of the intervals would depend a lot on the
distance the speed skater is specializing in. Cycling would work, kettle
bell training would probably work for 500 and 1,000m specialists.

Of course the best training is still on the ice in your skates.
  #9  
Old July 28th 03, 05:05 AM
Keith Hobman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

In article ,
(Phil Earnhardt) wrote:

In article ,
Keith Hobman wrote:
I do know the 'core' muscles are indeed strengthened by the use of
Swiss Balls and things like the Overball. Honestly. And many of the
ball exercises demand that you recruit most/all of the core muscles in
order to do the exercises. I would indeed be interested in how
Mr. McDonald came to the conclusion that the carryover of that
strength and proprioception to other activities would be "very limited".


He reads the studies. Carryover is very specific to neural recruitment
patterns. The idea of there being carryover from an inherently unstable
platform to other activities done on stable platforms is a stretch.


Well, we are talking about speedskating, which is hardly an activity
done on a stable platform.


You've never hit the ice? Very stable platform. I've played hockey all
my life and I can tell you it doesn't have much give at all.

I suspect that it might be because the 'ball' is too comfortable, and
that it probably gives assistance through 'bounce' - however marginal!

I don't know what this means. The balls are constantly
challenging your balance -- causing you to engage your core muscles.


Exactly why it doesn't carryover, unless you are doing your activities
in an earthquake.


See above.

Also: is was the premise of Mr. Hudson that the more (most?) effective
core exercise is slant-board sit-ups. Do you agree with that? If so,
what's the reasoning behind the claim?


No. The whole idea of core training is very trendy right now, but even
so slant board sit-ups are only an abdominal/hip exercise.

I would feel exactly the opposite. Exercises where you're strapping
yourself down would inherently limit the amount of core you have to
recruit to keep your balance.


Its not about balance.


Definitely is. This thread started in rec.sport.skating.racing.
Mr. McDonald added the weight lifting newsgroup.


Core exercises have little to do with balance.

Yes! It is a lot of fashionable nonsense!

Not exactly what I would call an erudite statement. Someone worried
about "honest" comments should strive to avoid such flippant quips.

And the statement makes little sense: Pilates has been around for the
better part of 100 years.


Better part is accurate.


Thank you. The point is clear: it's hardly the latest fad.

Pilates is a good program, but they are making
a lot of invalid claims. eg. It can create long muscles.


In many exercises, it emphasizes the eccentric contraction of the
muscles. Do you have an issue with that?


No. The same thing could be said many exercises. Which is hardly good
for speed skaing where the load is applied after a stretch reflex and
concentrically. This is what you want to train - not eccentric loading.

I've come into this midway. But doing the ball exercises and things like
balance boards and expecting a carryover into speed skating is a push at
best and a complete waste of time at worst.

If the question is as stated - how to become a better speed skater and
the quaestion is what out-of-scope training will make you a better
speed-skater than ball exercises and Pilates are very ineffective.

For the start in speed skating much better training would be box squat
using bands and chains, split snatches or split jerks and
glute/ham/gastroc raises. They will specifically develop an explosive
start using a neural pattern applicable to speedskating. They also
strengthen the core - try snatching and dropping into the split position.

I'd also do jumps of various types - broad jumps, single legged broad
jumps and jump ups.

For endurance various types of high intensity interval training would
apply and the duration of the intervals would depend a lot on the
distance the speed skater is specializing in. Cycling would work, kettle
bell training would probably work for 500 and 1,000m specialists.

Of course the best training is still on the ice in your skates.
  #10  
Old July 28th 03, 05:13 AM
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How can I become better in speed skating ?

I've never used a Swiss Ball to do crunches and I don't know what
activities specifically replicate the neural recruitment patterns of
Swiss Ball crunches.

Wouldn't stretching the abs amplify the intensity of the contraction?
Don't athletes need to have abdominals strong enough to perform in a
stretched position? Wouldn't Swiss Ball crunches be helpful in that
context?

If using a ball, especially with the feet close together, creates
instability, wouldn't that mean that the obliques would be worked to a
greater degree than by doing other kinds of situps or crunches?

I have been paraphrasing and quoting from a book on abdominal training
by Tsatsouline. I'd like to be directed to studies which confirm or
refute his assertions.

If I decide to do Swiss Ball crunches, I won't stop doing other kinds
of abdominal exercises. If I start doing them, they'll be done in
private because I know people would laugh at me if they saw me fall on
my head.






sktel.net wrote:

In article ,
(Phil Earnhardt) wrote:

In article ,
John HUDSON wrote:
And 10 more to kill the idea that there is anything but a very limited
carryover from the activities done on ball to any other activity.

Rather than have everyone waste a decade, could please tell us why you
think the core skills/strength developed on a swiss ball have limited
applicability to other activities?

Perhaps someone will be honest and admit that no matter how far you
get your feet back underneath, or how much weight you hug to the chest
or hang behind the head, doing abs on the Swiss Ball does not extend
those with a strong 'core'!


I don't really know what all those words mean. I have no idea what
sort of exercises you've come to the conclusion are Swiss Ball "core"
exercises, or how much you've practiced them.

I do know the 'core' muscles are indeed strengthened by the use of
Swiss Balls and things like the Overball. Honestly. And many of the
ball exercises demand that you recruit most/all of the core muscles in
order to do the exercises. I would indeed be interested in how
Mr. McDonald came to the conclusion that the carryover of that
strength and proprioception to other activities would be "very limited".


He reads the studies. Carryover is very specific to neural recruitment
patterns. The idea of there being carryover from an inherently unstable
platform to other activities done on stable platforms is a stretch.

I suspect that it might be because the 'ball' is too comfortable, and
that it probably gives assistance through 'bounce' - however marginal!


I don't know what this means. The balls are constantly
challenging your balance -- causing you to engage your core muscles.


Exactly why it doesn't carryover, unless you are doing your activities
in an earthquake.

Also, please tell us what you think that people should be doing
instead.

Despite the involvement of the hip flexors, fixed feet sit-ups on an
incline board are still the real exercise to hit the abs. Let the
'sore core' speak for itself the next day!


I would feel exactly the opposite. Exercises where you're strapping
yourself down would inherently limit the amount of core you have to
recruit to keep your balance.


Its not about balance.

Can you report what exact muscles feel sore after doing your
slant-board sit-ups?

Do you also feel that core-oriented Pilates work is a waste
of time?

Yes! It is a lot of fashionable nonsense!


Not exactly what I would call an erudite statement. Someone worried
about "honest" comments should strive to avoid such flippant quips.

And the statement makes little sense: Pilates has been around for the
better part of 100 years.


Better part is accurate. Pilates is a good program, but they are making
a lot of invalid claims. eg. It can create long muscles.


 




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