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KB vs. weights [was Looking For Ways To Pass The PAE PFT Please Help!



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 8th 03, 08:06 PM
Screachy Preachy
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Default KB vs. weights [was Looking For Ways To Pass The PAE PFT Please Help!

Steve Freides wrote:

Brandon Berg wrote:

"Steve Freides" wrote in message
...
This question comes up regularly on the Dragon Door forum - you might
want to post a message. http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/tpost.pl


If it comes up regularly, wouldn't it make more sense to check the archives
for an answer?


The search function on the DD forum, while it's recently been improved,
still leaves a lot to be desired - often you know just what you're
looking for and, somehow, it doesn't find it. I just posted a message
myself because I tried several searches looking for something and came
up with nothing. Some folks there seem to work it better than I do, so
I try but usually end up posting a message asking for help.

By the way, you were right. The problems with my snatches were on the way
down. If I press out instead of swinging it straight down in front of me, my
forearms are fine. Since I'm pressing out, though, do I have to limit the
sets to five reps?


No, the rep guideline is just that, a guideline. Pavel likes 5 reps and
under for just about everything, and believes you can achieve the "high
rep" effect more safely and with better technique by doing lots of short
sets on short rests. But if you're preparing for a competition and/or
the weight is really light and/or you know you can handle it safely,
higher reps are fine, at least some of the time.

E.g., I now do snatches with the 1-pood (16 kilo, 36 lb.) for high reps
2-3x/week primarily for their cardio effect, typically performing 100 or
more without stopping by doing 20 right, 20 left, 15 right, 15 left,
then continueing with sets of 10 or fewer until I feel like I'm starting
to lose form, getting tired, or am sucking wind so badly the pictures
are coming off the walls. The reason I don't mind the high reps is
because of the lightness of the weight - I've snatched the kettlebell
that weighs twice this much for 5 reps each side, so this one doesn't
tax my technique very much. In fact, the more you do a workout like
this, the more you learn to drive from your hips and not pull with your
arm because your arm tires out a whole lot faster than your legs/hips
do. The idea is to finish the workout and not have trashed your grip,
arms, and shoulders.

I like to run, swim, and bicycle and I have to tell you that every time
I add this sort of training to my routine, which takes all of about 5
minutes to perform, my sprint swim times come down, my hill climbing on
the bike gets faster, etc. For the non-stop approach, you just take a
short swing to switch hands, you never put the bell down. If you're
comfortable with it, you can even switch on the fly by letting go on the
downswing of the final rep with one hand and grabbing it with the other.

My usual format was/is 20-15-10-5 (50 per side, 100 total) but I've been
feeling good at it lately so I did 20-15-10-10 last time and will likely
try to keep increasing it slowly for a while. And I'm a fairly small
guy - the guys a notch up from me, who weigh 180 instead of my 150 and
can snatch the 2-pood (32 kilo, 70 lb.) kettlebell for reps with ease
are doing the 100 non-stop format with the 1.5 pood (24 kilo, 53 lb.)
bell. I can't manage that yet. And then there are people who compete
who, even in my weight class, snatch the 2-pood for 40-60 reps in a
single set with each arm, a mind boggling feat of strength/endurance to
me.

Anyone who lifts can substitute a 5-minute kettlebell snatch or c&j
session like this for their usual 20 minute jog - it's much closer to
the Guerilla Cardio idea than it is to traditional cardio and it offers
the additional benefit of being, well, being the kettlebell snatch,
which works just about every muscle you've got - abs, glutes/hips, legs
on both sides, grip, arm, shoulder - everything except the chest,
really.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
http://www.kbnj.com/ManyUsesOfKettlebells.html#Steve


Sounds like you could call the KB stuff a sort of "dynamic
weightlifting"--with considerably less weight than with a traditional
lift at 1 RM. In general, how do the weights in various KB moves
compare with "analogous" traditional 1 RM weight lifts?

Apropos of "bells", have seen the stone lifts in the strong man
contests on cable? That 320 lb stone is incredible! Can you imagine the
strength required to hoist a 320 lb ball, which allows no secure grip??
After all the previous balls have been hoisted?? Good gawd... Talk
about stabilizer muscles!
----------------------
Kristofer Hogg, ms, rd
HoloBarre Rehab/Fitness/Stretching Systems, Yonkers, NY
to email: Remove the numeric value of pi in my address
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  #2  
Old July 9th 03, 09:26 PM
Steve Freides
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Default KB vs. weights [was Looking For Ways To Pass The PAE PFT PleaseHelp!

Screachy Preachy wrote:
-snip-

Sounds like you could call the KB stuff a sort of "dynamic
weightlifting"--with considerably less weight than with a traditional
lift at 1 RM. In general, how do the weights in various KB moves
compare with "analogous" traditional 1 RM weight lifts?


Yes, that's true. It is dynamic but we should point out the difference
between a dumbbell and a kettlebell. People do swings, one of the most
basic kettlebell movements, with dumbbells as well. The general
consensus is that a 36 lb. kettlebell provides approximately the same
"feel" in terms of difficulty as a 45-50 lb. dumbbell. This is because
the kettlebell's bulk sits at the end of a thick (thicker than even
Olympic handle size) handle. The word we use to describe kettlebell
swings, snatches, and the like is "ballistic."

It's also worth noting that kettlebells, for slow, grinding types of
movement similar to those often done with dumbbells and barbells,
function a bit differently and, because there is no barbell version of a
kettlebell, one-handed versions of common movements are more common.
For example, one of my main exercises is the kettlebell military press.
Done like the "Arnold" press, it provides tremendous work for the
midsection, stabilizing the body while pressing a heavy weight overhead
on one side only.

Apropos of "bells", have seen the stone lifts in the strong man
contests on cable? That 320 lb stone is incredible! Can you imagine the
strength required to hoist a 320 lb ball, which allows no secure grip??
After all the previous balls have been hoisted?? Good gawd... Talk
about stabilizer muscles!


I wish they were on in prime time more often because I really enjoy
watching them. One of the things about kettlebell training (some it's
the kettlbells, and some it's the training methodology that's grown up
around them) is that it seems to better prepare one for real world
lifting, even strongman lifting, than barbbell lifting alone does,
probably because the swinging-on-a-handle nature of the weight requires
great grip strength and midsection stabilization.

=S=
http://www.kbnj.com


----------------------
Kristofer Hogg, ms, rd
HoloBarre Rehab/Fitness/Stretching Systems, Yonkers, NY
to email: Remove the numeric value of pi in my address
-------------------------------------------------------------------

  #3  
Old July 11th 03, 04:43 PM
Steve Freides
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Posts: n/a
Default KB vs. weights [was Looking For Ways To Pass The PAE PFT PleaseHelp!

Screachy Preachy wrote:

Steve Freides wrote:

Screachy Preachy wrote:
-snip-
Sounds like you could call the KB stuff a sort of "dynamic
weightlifting"--with considerably less weight than with a traditional
lift at 1 RM. In general, how do the weights in various KB moves
compare with "analogous" traditional 1 RM weight lifts?


I didn't answer this one completely. With me as an example, I weigh 150
lbs. and have a 325 deadlift best. I do most of my work with 53 lb.
kettlebells, some with 36, some with 72, very little with the 88 lb.
beast. I can, just barely, military press a 72 lb. bell, can press the
53 lb. version well for high volume, and can press the 36 lb. version
almost endlessly. I can one-leg deadlift a pair of 72 lbs. bells,
likewise I can clean and front squat them, but I often use a pair of 53
lb. bells instead because I can do more reps - I will typically front
squat a pair of 72's only for a few singles and doubles, sometimes a
triple, while a pair of 53's lets me put in several sets of 5 reps
fairly comfortably. I mix weights regularly in my training and if I am
taking only one bell, e.g., on vacation, I can use either a 72 or a 53
effectively.

Since I'm lighter than most lifters, you'll find most serious lifters do
more of their work with the 72's than I do.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


Makes me tired just reading this!

But very interesting. Clearly KBs have neuro-muscular advantages
over traditional weightlifting, altho paradoxically, I think traditional
weightlifting could be used to improve KB "performance", by dint of the
inherently better muscle isolation in trad'l weights.


I can't agree with this last part of your sentence. There is very
little to be gained by isolation for most people. It has some place in
the training of a powerlifter trying to work on a weakspot, and
certainly lots of application for a bodybuilder, but for someone working
for general athleticism and/or fitness, the body wants and needs to work
as an integrated whole. That's why the kettlebell is so great.

Actually, if you view KB more as a sport, replete with compound
motions, weightlifting by default is how one would "train" for KBs! Not
really paradoxical, then. But not to take anything away from KBs,
either. I think it is very valuable, and like HH, can stand all by
itself as a really efficient and effective fitness method. Not my
particular cup of tea, but I could see myself incorporating it as part
of a routine--mostly for that whole-body effort.

Some time ago, I remember someone posting about a routine where
they would jog/walk, and pick up and throw a big-assed stone ahead of
them. I tried this one day as a lark, and it is indeed
exhausting--ambulatory weightlifting! And, as in KBs, pretty versatile,
as there are quite a few ways to hurl a stone, catching a great variety
of upper body muscles, not to mention the lower back in the lift.


There are lots of versions of this, and anyone interesting in kicking
their fitness up a notch ought to consider them. In its simplest form,
you can walk or run between exercise stations in your local park or, if
your park doesn't have them, adopt a simple approach of every xxx
distance, drop and do 10 pushups and 10 situps before continueing on.
Some of the kettlebellers take their bells to the track and, once or
twice per lap, do a set of something with them. My worry with a truly
heavy weight would be that one shouldn't do such a thing while in a
fatigued state. Again, the weight of a kettlebell is about right for
such mixed activities, heavy enough to be challenging, but light enough
that it's not likely to put someone's back out.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Apropos of the recent post on walking with 22 lb weights in each
hand, which I think is *entirely* unproductive, heavy stone hurling
while walking is probably better in some ways than Heavy Hands, and
probably a fair approximation to a KB workout. Kinda like a HH/KB
meld...

I'm thinking Garrison or Cardone would make pretty good dead
weights, if they would shut up and stay still. It'd be pretty
satisfying, I think, to hurl Garrison every 10 feet or so throughout a 1
mile power walk. thud-whimper walk thud-whimper walk....
And if they wear a belt, there goes yer KB handle!! Could even
use Garrison in the Hammer Throw!
Mr. Bagnol:
Did I just lower my signal-to-noise ratio--again???
----------------------
Kristofer Hogg, ms, rd
HoloBarre Rehab/Fitness/Stretching Systems, Yonkers, NY
to email: Remove the numeric value of pi in my address
-------------------------------------------------------------------

 




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