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OT but a good read. :-)



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 17th 09, 02:07 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Dnia 2009-01-16 Omelet napisał(a):
In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

I've read about that. To date (from what I've read), it's only being
considered by the military.

All's fair in love and war. War sucks. Always has, always will.


Who says this weapon has any meaningful military applications? Crowd
control and "pain compliance" are its main potential fields of
deployment.


Which can be handy to use against civilians in an urban war zone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--
Andrzej Rosa
  #22  
Old January 17th 09, 07:11 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Jason Earl[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 761
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Andrzej Rosa writes:

Dnia 2009-01-16 Omelet napisaƂ(a):
In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

[...]
You guys bring it over and over again; "they" are tased, not "us". Then
a white man gets tased, unfortunately even dies due to that, and we have
an international affair.


I've never felt that one particular race (or group of people, for that
matter) had cornered the market on stupidity.

Here's the thing, though. When the police officers with the bulletproof
vests show up, you'd probably be better off to stick your hands up in
the air and cooperate. Unless, of course, the issue is important enough
to you that it is worth dying for. Because police officers that show up
to work in bullet proof vests don't give a damn if you are having a bad
day, or even that you might get hurt. They've been called in to make
you comply, and that's what they are going to do. They are far more
concerned about their own safety than they are concerned about yours.

You understand that (even if you don't like the fact that that is how
things work), but some people don't understand that.

I remember that episode at the airport. I don't blame you for taking
it personally.


I don't take it personally. Actually I tend to believe that the whole
thing looked overblown out of proportions, and I couldn't figure out
why. One reason was that he was a foreigner, so there was somebody
asking questions afterwards, but that does not explain why everybody
else cared; there were other incidents like that when people died.
This piece though is explained by the fact, that he happened to be
white.


These days any confrontation between police officers and others that
happens in public will get taped. Everyone has a cell phone or camera
that takes video, and publishing is as easy as putting the file on
youtube.com.

That's how things *should* work.

It's in everyone's best interests to make sure that the police don't
carried away.

Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water please.


You guys do what you like with your country. I'm just voicing
legitimate concerns about primary modes of use of a tool, which is
officially recognized as an implement of torture.


It's just a tool. Irons (the kind you use to take the wrinkles out of
clothes) are also implements of torture, but no one is talking about
banning them.

The taser is currently the best tool we have for safely submitting
people that don't want to comply with law enforcement. That's a need
that, quite frankly, isn't going to go away.

Criticism is welcome, but only if it is constructive. What tool do you
believe we should be using instead?

Jason
  #23  
Old January 17th 09, 07:20 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Jason Earl[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 761
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Andrzej Rosa writes:

Dnia 2009-01-16 Omelet napisaƂ(a):
In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

I've read about that. To date (from what I've read), it's only being
considered by the military.

All's fair in love and war. War sucks. Always has, always will.

Who says this weapon has any meaningful military applications? Crowd
control and "pain compliance" are its main potential fields of
deployment.


Which can be handy to use against civilians in an urban war zone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Would you rather we just fire-bombed the civilians like we did in
Dresden?

Jason
  #24  
Old January 18th 09, 12:44 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Dnia 2009-01-17 Jason Earl napisał(a):
Andrzej Rosa writes:

[...]
You guys do what you like with your country. I'm just voicing
legitimate concerns about primary modes of use of a tool, which is
officially recognized as an implement of torture.


It's just a tool.


For causing people debilitating pain. It has no other uses.

Irons (the kind you use to take the wrinkles out of
clothes) are also implements of torture, but no one is talking about
banning them.


Because it has other uses.

The taser is currently the best tool we have for safely submitting
people that don't want to comply with law enforcement. That's a need
that, quite frankly, isn't going to go away.

Criticism is welcome, but only if it is constructive. What tool do you
believe we should be using instead?


Submission skills. I had a fried who did a part time job as a property
warden, and he took lessons in ju-jutsu to get the job. Are your guys
worse than that?

--
Andrzej Rosa
  #25  
Old January 18th 09, 01:01 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Dnia 2009-01-17 Jason Earl napisał(a):
Andrzej Rosa writes:

[...]
You guys bring it over and over again; "they" are tased, not "us". Then
a white man gets tased, unfortunately even dies due to that, and we have
an international affair.


I've never felt that one particular race (or group of people, for that
matter) had cornered the market on stupidity.

Here's the thing, though. When the police officers with the bulletproof
vests show up, you'd probably be better off to stick your hands up in
the air and cooperate. Unless, of course, the issue is important enough
to you that it is worth dying for. Because police officers that show up
to work in bullet proof vests don't give a damn if you are having a bad
day, or even that you might get hurt. They've been called in to make
you comply, and that's what they are going to do. They are far more
concerned about their own safety than they are concerned about yours.

You understand that (even if you don't like the fact that that is how
things work), but some people don't understand that.


OK, I skipped it before, but what the hell, I'll answer. Whole your
argument is based on a single and often very wrong assumption, that a
victim is thinking more or less clearly when they call cops on him. It
very often is not true. It can be drugs, alcohol, extreme emotional
distress, madness, all of that combined and hell knows what else, but in
general you don't need to call cops on reasonable people.

--
Andrzej Rosa
  #26  
Old January 18th 09, 09:59 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Dnia 2009-01-18 Omelet napisał(a):
In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Submission skills. I had a fried who did a part time job as a property
warden, and he took lessons in ju-jutsu to get the job. Are your guys
worse than that?


Ah. So cause them excruciating pain and joint wrenching or hitting with
martial arts skill instead of a quick electrical shock that usually
leaves no lasting damage?


It's called restraining. Tasers do not restrain, they just cause pain,
which hopefully will scare the victim into obedience. Joint levers
allow you to put the guy on the ground and handcuff him, which looks
like just the job for which cops are drawing wages.

--
Andrzej Rosa
  #27  
Old January 18th 09, 12:21 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Dnia 2009-01-18 Omelet napisał(a):
In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Ah. So cause them excruciating pain and joint wrenching or hitting with
martial arts skill instead of a quick electrical shock that usually
leaves no lasting damage?


It's called restraining. Tasers do not restrain, they just cause pain,
which hopefully will scare the victim into obedience.


No, one can be cuffed while being tased as you have no control over your
muscles. It's more than just pain. It's paralysis.


Prove it. I mean, go to google and find a video of that happening.
I've seen five or maybe a bit more of videos of tasing, and I didn't
stumble upon it.

Which is not surprising, taking in account that you'd probably have to
break the arms of the victim to pull it off, and it takes longer than
several seconds.

Joint levers
allow you to put the guy on the ground and handcuff him, which looks
like just the job for which cops are drawing wages.


But it still hurts. ;-)


Did you train joint levers? I did. Pain kinda guides your opponent
into putting himself where you want him, which can be on the ground with
arms behind him. He doesn't cease resistance, he tries to free himself
all the time, and you sort of dupe him into losing a fight or being
handcuffed, whatever is your primary goal.

It's not all tap or snap.

I don't see the difference except the manual method can cause actual
damage, not just pain???


Go and try it for yourself. You'll see it all right.

--
Andrzej Rosa
  #28  
Old January 18th 09, 04:38 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Dnia 2009-01-18 Omelet napisał(a):
In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

No, one can be cuffed while being tased as you have no control over your
muscles. It's more than just pain. It's paralysis.


Prove it. I mean, go to google and find a video of that happening.
I've seen five or maybe a bit more of videos of tasing, and I didn't
stumble upon it.


This is according to a police trainer that did his masters thesis on
tasers, and also trains officers in their use.


So it will be easy to find one such case, when they tase someone and
cuff him as he drops down from shock...

Which is not surprising, taking in account that you'd probably have to
break the arms of the victim to pull it off, and it takes longer than
several seconds.


lol I see you've never been handcuffed. :-)
I have. I was astounded at how fast even a rookie could cuff me! I did
not have time to resist.


I meant not time enough to break arms, or at least brute-force them
behind back. Anyway, if you have strength enough to do that, you may
very well give up on a taser. You just don't need it.

In case you are wondering, no, I was not being arrested. I had
volunteered when I was a student in the CPA along with some other
students to play "bad guy" for a rookie training exercise. It was
rather fun actually. ;-) They were doing felony traffic stop practice.

The arms of a tasing victim are totally limp. No muscular control.


From what I've seen, they stiffen up in whatever position they were at
the time of a shot. Actually on one clip where some soldiers tased each
other for whatever reason, they lowered the guys to the ground holding
them by their elbows. Guys were totally stiff.

IOW, I can prove you wrong on that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSW44UPgwQ

They get totally stiff, and visibly loosen up after the voltage stops.

Did you train joint levers? I did. Pain kinda guides your opponent
into putting himself where you want him, which can be on the ground with
arms behind him. He doesn't cease resistance, he tries to free himself
all the time, and you sort of dupe him into losing a fight or being
handcuffed, whatever is your primary goal.

It's not all tap or snap.


But it still causes PAIN.


Some techniques. While I'm not an expert, I'd say that most are based
on multiplying your strength and putting your opponent into a position,
where he can't use his strength.

Once I'm googling stuff up - have a look here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5HSpEEm6so
First thing which popped up, but it actually is good for what I need it.
Guys are doing things really slowly, so you can see how it works. Guys
block some blows, grab hold of an opponent, throw him to the ground
using levers, but not the hurting kind, then finish up with a "tap or
snap" kind of lever.

And it works in practice too. I've seen a cop use a different kind of
lever on a teen hooligan in Berlin. He just walked him to the car,
without even bothering with handcuffs. There were many teenagers, all
of them up to no good, but two cops took hold of the situation within a
minute after they appeared. And they did not torture anybody in the
process.

I don't see the difference except the manual method can cause actual
damage, not just pain???


Go and try it for yourself. You'll see it all right.


Leverage and/or trigger points still hurt.


Trigger points are not very effective, especially against drugged or
intoxicated people. They just do not feel the pain, and when they do,
the first reaction is to break free. It's kinda hard to keep the
pressure against a specific spot on a non-cooperating opponent.

IF a person resists hard enough when you are "levering" them into
position, you can break something.


That's just nonsense. I mean, it makes sense on paper, but very little
in practice. Just have a look at any UFC fight. They resist all they
can, and they are really good at it, but situations when it leads to
injury are very rare.

--
Andrzej Rosa
  #29  
Old January 19th 09, 08:02 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Jason Earl[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 761
Default OT but a good read. :-)

Andrzej Rosa writes:

Dnia 2009-01-18 Omelet napisaƂ(a):
In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Submission skills. I had a fried who did a part time job as a property
warden, and he took lessons in ju-jutsu to get the job. Are your guys
worse than that?


Ah. So cause them excruciating pain and joint wrenching or hitting with
martial arts skill instead of a quick electrical shock that usually
leaves no lasting damage?


It's called restraining. Tasers do not restrain, they just cause pain,
which hopefully will scare the victim into obedience. Joint levers
allow you to put the guy on the ground and handcuff him, which looks
like just the job for which cops are drawing wages.


Actually, that's not true at all. The primary reason that police use
tasers is that they induce temporary loss of muscle control. Taser
International calls this Neuromuscular Incapacitation.

If all tasers did was cause pain, then I would actually agree with you
Andrzej, but that's not the case. The victim of a taser also loses
temporary control of his or her body.

Jason
 




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