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  #1  
Old July 3rd 03, 11:16 PM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Theresa wrote:

You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac


crest,

the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec major


as

two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the sternum....



Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered one
muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered to

be
one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations
(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three) is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen any

books
considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.


Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple seconds to
review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was that
the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle and I
have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically speaking,
pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the Pec
Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there were
upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email translation
is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay


  #2  
Old July 3rd 03, 11:16 PM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Theresa wrote:

You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac


crest,

the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec major


as

two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the sternum....



Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered one
muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered to

be
one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations
(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three) is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen any

books
considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.


Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple seconds to
review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was that
the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle and I
have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically speaking,
pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the Pec
Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there were
upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email translation
is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay


  #3  
Old July 4th 03, 01:47 AM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Theresa wrote:


You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,


the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec

major

as


two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the

sternum....



Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered

one
muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered to


be

one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate


innervations

(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three) is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen any


books

considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple

seconds to
review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was

that
the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle

and I
have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically

speaking,
pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the

Pec
Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there

were
upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email

translation
is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please show
me where I said that.


"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec major.
Go back and check out what you said.

Those words were put there by you, either because
you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.


Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different
heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.


So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.

It's really an easy thing to
understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).


Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.

Jay


  #4  
Old July 4th 03, 01:47 AM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Theresa wrote:


You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,


the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec

major

as


two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the

sternum....



Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered

one
muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered to


be

one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate


innervations

(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three) is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen any


books

considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple

seconds to
review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was

that
the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle

and I
have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically

speaking,
pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the

Pec
Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there

were
upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email

translation
is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please show
me where I said that.


"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec major.
Go back and check out what you said.

Those words were put there by you, either because
you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.


Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different
heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.


So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.

It's really an easy thing to
understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).


Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.

Jay


  #5  
Old July 4th 03, 05:40 AM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"Bonker" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 23:47:31 GMT, "Jay Hillman"
wrote:


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Theresa wrote:


You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of

the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major

has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal

(lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,


the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec

major

as


two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the

sternum....



Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually

know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are

indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as

I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read,

you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered

one
muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered

to

be

one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations

(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three)

is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen

any

books

considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you

need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus

dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth

that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and

lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that

you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two

separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the

post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different

types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact

that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple

seconds to
review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was

that
the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE

muscle
and I
have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically

speaking,
pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus

sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that

the
Pec
Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there

were
upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email

translation
is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please

show
me where I said that.


"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec

major.
Go back and check out what you said.

Those words were put there by you, either because
you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a

manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.


Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different
heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory

classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.


So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.

It's really an easy thing to
understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).


Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you

want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.

Jay


I'm guessing you guys aren't English, right?


Oh hey, its crossposted. Is it that obvious?

Bonker.

--
------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing Is True, Everything Is Permissible"
(Hasan ibn-al Sabah - 12th Century)
------------------------------------------------------------


Jay


  #6  
Old July 4th 03, 05:40 AM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"Bonker" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 23:47:31 GMT, "Jay Hillman"
wrote:


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Theresa wrote:


You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of

the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major

has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal

(lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,


the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec

major

as


two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the

sternum....



Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually

know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are

indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as

I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read,

you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered

one
muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered

to

be

one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations

(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three)

is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen

any

books

considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you

need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus

dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth

that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and

lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that

you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two

separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the

post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different

types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact

that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple

seconds to
review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was

that
the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE

muscle
and I
have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically

speaking,
pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus

sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that

the
Pec
Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there

were
upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email

translation
is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please

show
me where I said that.


"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec

major.
Go back and check out what you said.

Those words were put there by you, either because
you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a

manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.


Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different
heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory

classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.


So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.

It's really an easy thing to
understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).


Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you

want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.

Jay


I'm guessing you guys aren't English, right?


Oh hey, its crossposted. Is it that obvious?

Bonker.

--
------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing Is True, Everything Is Permissible"
(Hasan ibn-al Sabah - 12th Century)
------------------------------------------------------------


Jay


  #7  
Old July 4th 03, 06:50 AM
spodosaurus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups

Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Jay Hillman wrote:


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...



Theresa wrote:



You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,



the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec


major

as



two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the


sternum....


Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered


one

muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered to

be


one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations


(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three) is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen any

books


considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple


seconds to

review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was


that

the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle


and I

have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically


speaking,

pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the


Pec

Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there


were

upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email


translation

is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please show
me where I said that.



"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec major.
Go back and check out what you said.


Cool, thanks, I was wrong to have typed that!

Those words were put there by you, either because

you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.



Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different

heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.



So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.


Functionally, it (the pec major) can act as two muscles. You can get a
much stronger contraction in the sternal or clavicular head depending on
the angle of pull of the upper arm. You do not get this with the
latissimus dorsi, because you can't.

It's really an easy thing to

understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).



Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.


You're still wrong, and not understanding what you're reading.


Jay




--

Are you registered as a bone marrow donor? You regenerate what you
donate. You are offered the chance to donate only if you match a person
on the recipient list. Call your local Red Cross and ask about
registering to be a bone marrow donor.

spam trap: replace shyah_right! with hotmail when replying

  #8  
Old July 4th 03, 06:50 AM
spodosaurus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups

Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Jay Hillman wrote:


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...



Theresa wrote:



You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,



the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec


major

as



two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the


sternum....


Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered


one

muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered to

be


one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations


(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three) is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen any

books


considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple


seconds to

review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was


that

the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle


and I

have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically


speaking,

pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the


Pec

Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there


were

upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email


translation

is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please show
me where I said that.



"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec major.
Go back and check out what you said.


Cool, thanks, I was wrong to have typed that!

Those words were put there by you, either because

you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.



Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different

heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.



So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.


Functionally, it (the pec major) can act as two muscles. You can get a
much stronger contraction in the sternal or clavicular head depending on
the angle of pull of the upper arm. You do not get this with the
latissimus dorsi, because you can't.

It's really an easy thing to

understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).



Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.


You're still wrong, and not understanding what you're reading.


Jay




--

Are you registered as a bone marrow donor? You regenerate what you
donate. You are offered the chance to donate only if you match a person
on the recipient list. Call your local Red Cross and ask about
registering to be a bone marrow donor.

spam trap: replace shyah_right! with hotmail when replying

  #9  
Old July 4th 03, 07:06 AM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Jay Hillman wrote:


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...



Theresa wrote:



You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of

the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major

has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal

(lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,



the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec


major

as



two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the


sternum....


Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are

indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as

I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered


one

muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered

to

be


one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations


(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three)

is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen

any

books


considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you

need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus

dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth

that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two

separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the

post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple


seconds to

review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was


that

the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle


and I

have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically


speaking,

pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the


Pec

Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there


were

upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email


translation

is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please show
me where I said that.



"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec

major.
Go back and check out what you said.


Cool, thanks, I was wrong to have typed that!



No prob. That was the part I was questioning. Not the upper and lower lat
aspect, as that is entirely bung.


Those words were put there by you, either because

you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.



Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and

sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying

anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different

heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.



So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.


Functionally, it (the pec major) can act as two muscles. You can get a
much stronger contraction in the sternal or clavicular head depending on
the angle of pull of the upper arm. You do not get this with the
latissimus dorsi, because you can't.


No, I understand that and agree with that, it was just the two heads being
considered two separate muscles I don't agree with. The simple premise that
you can have upper and lower lats is ridiculous (which I'm sure I supported
somewhere). In order to have lower lats, you would have to have some sort of
contractile force in the thoracolumbar fascia, which is equally insane.


It's really an easy thing to

understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).



Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you

want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.


You're still wrong, and not understanding what you're reading.


I'm not wrong, because I'm not arguing with your statement regarding the
upper and lower lats. Nor am I arguing the fact that the sternal and
clavicular portions of the pec major contribute to different angles of
contraction during various actions. (I'm not sure if you could even say the
abdominal fibers play in part more in various actions either).

ex. High cable flyes and Low cable flyes wheras the low cable flyes have
more sternal fiber recruitment.

I was just disagreeing with your lil typo as stated above, not the lat
statement. I think this is where we were having the problem.

Jay


  #10  
Old July 4th 03, 07:06 AM
Jay Hillman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pull Ups


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...
Jay Hillman wrote:
"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...

Jay Hillman wrote:

"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...


Jay Hillman wrote:


"spodosaurus" wrote in message
...



Theresa wrote:



You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of

the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major

has
TWO muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal

(lower)
heads, and that's a different ballgame there.


Lats originate from the spine from T6 to L5, the sacrum, the iliac

crest,



the scapula, and the lower 4 ribs. If you're going to count pec


major

as



two muscles because it originates from the clavicle and the


sternum....


Theresa, before you open your mouth, you might want to actually know
something about which you speak. While both the pectoralis major
muscles and the latissumus dorsi are fan shaped muscles (yes, the
pectoralis major has multiple points of origin, too), there are

indeed
two different heads to the pectoralis major with different nerve
innervation. The latissimus muscles are one muscle per side, as

I've
already stated. Please open up an anatomy book and have a read, you
bloody idiot.



Well, the biceps brachii have two separate heads, and its considered


one

muscle, adductor magnus has several innervations and its considered

to

be


one muscle, and the Iliopsoas, with two muscles with separate

innervations


(unless you are tossing in Psoas Minor in there, then there's three)

is
being considered only one muscle in some books. But I haven't seen

any

books


considering Pec Major as two separate muscles.



Well then jay, please, hook yourself up to an emg and flex only your
'lower lats' for us please :-) And if you haven't seen books that
describe the pec major as having two separate heads with different
innervation and different EMG results depending on the angle of pull
(muscles pull, not push, Jay, even in a pressing movement) then you

need
to read a few more books. There's no upper and lower latissimus

dorsi,
it is ONE muscle. The post I took issue with originally put forth

that
both the pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi had upper and lower
parts that could be trained somewhat separately. The fact that you're
focussing on the pectoralis major which quite blatantly hsa two

separate
heads with different innervations and ignoring the problem with the

post
that suggests the latissimus dorsi do as well and that different types
of pullups can shape the latissimus muscles shows that you are
completely off track, and a ****wad.



Well then, show me anywhere in my post that I agreed with the fact that
there were upper and lower latissimus dorsi. If you take a couple


seconds to

review what I had said, you would see that what I was agreeing on was


that

the pectoralis major, while having two heads, is still a SINGLE muscle


and I

have yet to see a single book stating otherwise. Also, technically


speaking,

pectoralis major also has lower fibers attaching on the rectus sheath,
which, in accordance to what you are saying, could be stating that the


Pec

Major has 3 heads, so therefore separate 3 muscles, not 2.

Like I said, find anything in my post that had me stating that there


were

upper and lower lats, and I'll concede that your level of email


translation

is greater than mine, ****wad.

Jay



Jay, the reason I got ****ted off by you is that you decided I was
saying that the pectoralis major was two different muscles. Please show
me where I said that.



"You have 1 latissimus dorsi and one teres major on each side of the
body. There is no 'upper and lower' lat. The pectoralis major has TWO
muscles on each side, the clavicular (upper) and sternal (lower) heads,
and that's a different ballgame there."

Right here...notice how you said two muscles on each side for the pec

major.
Go back and check out what you said.


Cool, thanks, I was wrong to have typed that!



No prob. That was the part I was questioning. Not the upper and lower lat
aspect, as that is entirely bung.


Those words were put there by you, either because

you misread what I wrote or because you were trying to be a manipulative
little *******. I am interpretting your comments as being made by a
manipulative little ******* because you seem to be trying to pull the
same ****e again, with this 3 heads to the pec major crap that you've
just spewed forth.



Check above. If you want to get nitpicky about the clavicular and

sternal
heads being separate muscles, you could also say that the origin on the
rectus abdominus sheath is a separate head as well. I'm not saying

anyone
does, its merely an observation, but then again, I don't know anyone who
considers the pec major as 2 muscles per side. But then I don't get out
much.
This must be a touchy subject for you.


Furthermore, EMG studies show that the different

heads of the pec major contract with different intensities depending on
the angle and direction of upper arm movement, and in this way you can
train the sternal or clavicular heads of the pectoralis major to a
greater or lesser extent comparatively. This is made possible by the
different innervation, as can be seen in any anatomy text. It also
helps to have had access to cadaveric material during laboratory classes
to pull on muscles and tendons and watch the limbs move, but that's far
from essential to understanding this.



So, because it has 2 innervations, it means that its 2 muscles?
Been to both anatomy classes and cadavers labs, thank you.


Functionally, it (the pec major) can act as two muscles. You can get a
much stronger contraction in the sternal or clavicular head depending on
the angle of pull of the upper arm. You do not get this with the
latissimus dorsi, because you can't.


No, I understand that and agree with that, it was just the two heads being
considered two separate muscles I don't agree with. The simple premise that
you can have upper and lower lats is ridiculous (which I'm sure I supported
somewhere). In order to have lower lats, you would have to have some sort of
contractile force in the thoracolumbar fascia, which is equally insane.


It's really an easy thing to

understand. There are plenty of anatomy books that can help you out,
including Last's Anatomy and Grant's Method of Anatomy, but you display
a level of laziness that ****es me off as well (laziness ****es me off
much more than stupidity and ignorance).



Hmmm... are these references adequate? Yeah, an no bitching about my
inability to write references.

Tortora Grabowski "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology 8th ed."
Henry Gray, FRS "Gray's Anatomy"
Frank H. Netter, MD. "Atlas of Human Anatomy 2nd ed"
Elaine N. Marieb "Human Anatomy and Physiology 3rd ed."
Blandine Calais-Germain "Anatomy of movement"

So, you were saying what about laziness with your assumptions? You can
continue to get ****ed off all you want about laziness, but maybe you

want
to check again on what you said before you toss the ****.


You're still wrong, and not understanding what you're reading.


I'm not wrong, because I'm not arguing with your statement regarding the
upper and lower lats. Nor am I arguing the fact that the sternal and
clavicular portions of the pec major contribute to different angles of
contraction during various actions. (I'm not sure if you could even say the
abdominal fibers play in part more in various actions either).

ex. High cable flyes and Low cable flyes wheras the low cable flyes have
more sternal fiber recruitment.

I was just disagreeing with your lil typo as stated above, not the lat
statement. I think this is where we were having the problem.

Jay


 




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