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Vixen Tor access and assaults



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 14th 05, 03:06 PM
Tom
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Default Vixen Tor access and assaults

Someone sounds unpleasant.....

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/news_det.asp?item_id=880

"The BMC has received a report of a serious incident at Vixen Tor,
Dartmoor on 12 September.

Climbers on the route 'Torture' had their ropes cut - while the
leader was climbing - and the belayer was physically assaulted.
Fortunately the leader managed to retreat from the climb without
injury. The climbers called the police and there were several arrests -
it is understood that the incident may lead to a criminal prosecution.

Vixen Tor was subject to a CRoW Act appeal earlier this year and there
is no formal right of access to the Tor."

  #2  
Old September 14th 05, 05:29 PM
Tim Jones
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On 14 Sep 2005 06:06:44 -0700, "Tom" wrote:

Someone sounds unpleasant.....

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/news_det.asp?item_id=880

"The BMC has received a report of a serious incident at Vixen Tor,
Dartmoor on 12 September.

Climbers on the route 'Torture' had their ropes cut - while the
leader was climbing - and the belayer was physically assaulted.
Fortunately the leader managed to retreat from the climb without
injury. The climbers called the police and there were several arrests -
it is understood that the incident may lead to a criminal prosecution.

Vixen Tor was subject to a CRoW Act appeal earlier this year and there
is no formal right of access to the Tor."



The whole incident sounds a real mess, it may be worth pausing to ask
why these climbers were there causing confrontation at a point when
others were working to negotiate access. Perhaps they weren't the
most sensitive and reasoning embassadors for our sport?

Regards

Tim Jones
  #3  
Old September 14th 05, 08:11 PM
Simon Challands
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In message
(Tim Jones) wrote:

On 14 Sep 2005 06:06:44 -0700, "Tom" wrote:

Someone sounds unpleasant.....

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/news_det.asp?item_id=880

"The BMC has received a report of a serious incident at Vixen Tor,
Dartmoor on 12 September.

Climbers on the route 'Torture' had their ropes cut - while the
leader was climbing - and the belayer was physically assaulted.
Fortunately the leader managed to retreat from the climb without
injury. The climbers called the police and there were several arrests -
it is understood that the incident may lead to a criminal prosecution.

Vixen Tor was subject to a CRoW Act appeal earlier this year and there
is no formal right of access to the Tor."



The whole incident sounds a real mess, it may be worth pausing to ask
why these climbers were there causing confrontation at a point when
others were working to negotiate access. Perhaps they weren't the
most sensitive and reasoning embassadors for our sport?


But even the most rabid anti-access advocate should realise that
attempted murder is a somewhat more serious crime (well, obviously not
all, otherwise this wouldn't have happened).

--
Simon Challands
  #4  
Old September 14th 05, 11:59 PM
Roger
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The message
from Simon Challands contains these words:

Vixen Tor was subject to a CRoW Act appeal earlier this year and there
is no formal right of access to the Tor."



The whole incident sounds a real mess, it may be worth pausing to ask
why these climbers were there causing confrontation at a point when
others were working to negotiate access. Perhaps they weren't the
most sensitive and reasoning embassadors for our sport?


But even the most rabid anti-access advocate should realise that
attempted murder is a somewhat more serious crime (well, obviously not
all, otherwise this wouldn't have happened).


Trespassing (except in certain limited situations) is not a crime.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 53 summits
New - 27 (Marilyns 13, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 26 (Marilyns 10, Nuttalls 17, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)
  #5  
Old September 15th 05, 12:05 AM
Tim Jones
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:11:16 +0100, Simon Challands
wrote:


But even the most rabid anti-access advocate should realise that
attempted murder is a somewhat more serious crime (well, obviously not
all, otherwise this wouldn't have happened).


Who mentioned attempted murder?

As far as I can see we know very few facts at present. We don't even
know who was arrested.

Is it just possible that the climbers weren't whiter than white in
this?

How about keeping an open mind until all the facts are known.
  #7  
Old September 15th 05, 12:24 AM
Simon Challands
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Default

In message
Roger wrote:

The message
from Simon Challands contains these words:

Vixen Tor was subject to a CRoW Act appeal earlier this year and there
is no formal right of access to the Tor."


The whole incident sounds a real mess, it may be worth pausing to ask
why these climbers were there causing confrontation at a point when
others were working to negotiate access. Perhaps they weren't the
most sensitive and reasoning embassadors for our sport?


But even the most rabid anti-access advocate should realise that
attempted murder is a somewhat more serious crime (well, obviously not
all, otherwise this wouldn't have happened).


Trespassing (except in certain limited situations) is not a crime.


If the story is true it clearly is in someone's mind.

--
Simon Challands
  #9  
Old September 15th 05, 12:28 PM
Tim Jones
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Default

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:12:19 +0100, Mike Clark
wrote:

In message
(Tim Jones) wrote:

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:11:16 +0100, Simon Challands
wrote:


But even the most rabid anti-access advocate should realise that
attempted murder is a somewhat more serious crime (well, obviously not
all, otherwise this wouldn't have happened).


Who mentioned attempted murder?

As far as I can see we know very few facts at present. We don't even
know who was arrested.

Is it just possible that the climbers weren't whiter than white in
this?

How about keeping an open mind until all the facts are known.


You might be right that the facts as reported on the BMC website are
wrong, there may even be additional facts that do indeed change the
scenario.

However based on the statement on the BMC website which clearly says

Climbers on the route 'Torture' had their ropes cut - while the
leader was climbing - and the belayer was physically assaulted.

it looks very like a serious assault.

Perhaps you don't climb? If you do however, what would you think of the
circumstance of attempting to climb whilst your safety rope was being
cut and/or the person controlling it was being physically assualted?


I do climb. In this instance I gather the climbers were asked to
leave, pretended to do so then carried on clmbing.

We all know access at Vixen Tor is subject to negotiation right now,
so I personally wouldn't have been selfish enough to jeopardise those
negotiations by trying to climb there and certainly wouldn't have
carried on climbing after being asked to leave. I can't help but feel
that these two climbers obviously weren't masters of subtlety and
could very easily have done a lot to provoke the incident.

If you knowingly climb at a venue with serious access issues you a re
surely inviting confrontation and must accept that your actions are
provocative, especially if you ignore a request to leave?

regards

Tim Jones
  #10  
Old September 15th 05, 12:41 PM
Peter Clinch
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Default

Tim Jones wrote:

I do climb. In this instance I gather the climbers were asked to
leave, pretended to do so then carried on clmbing.


So that makes it Perfectly Justifiable to assault one person and
endanger the life of another?

We all know access at Vixen Tor is subject to negotiation right now,
so I personally wouldn't have been selfish enough to jeopardise those
negotiations by trying to climb there and certainly wouldn't have
carried on climbing after being asked to leave. I can't help but feel
that these two climbers obviously weren't masters of subtlety and
could very easily have done a lot to provoke the incident.


It's difficult to provoke someone to do something that could easily
cause *death* when you're either climbing a route or attached to someone
who is. You're pretty much limited to verbal communication, and if you
can provoke someone to cut a safety rope with that then you really score
-10 for Gift of the Gab when the normal minimum is 0.

If you knowingly climb at a venue with serious access issues you a re
surely inviting confrontation and must accept that your actions are
provocative, especially if you ignore a request to leave?


Thobut confrontation at the level of cutting a safety rope? Think of
the ramifications of that! It's like deliberately running someone over
at speed because they spat on your car's paintwork!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 




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