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Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?



 
 
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  #31  
Old March 3rd 08, 10:20 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
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Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-03 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...

First Muscle weighs more than fat. It is denser material.


But a pound of muscle weights the same as a pound of fat. It takes the
same amount of calories to carry it around with you all day too, so you
can lose fat without restricting calories. That's what I wrote.


A pound of muscle is much smaller than a pound of fat. Thats why often even
though a person is getting smaller from losing fat, they don't see a
corresponding loss on the scale. Because the muscle they are building is
keeping the weight from dropping as much.


I don't think that I wrote anything to the contrary.

More effective way of wasting your training effort, probably. If you
want good mile times, you need to run relatively fresh, not after you
depleted yourself off all glycogen (and reason) with heavy squats. If you
want heavy lifts, cardio is a waste of recovery resources. If you need
both, separate workouts or a mixed routine would work better. Whatever
you do after you already gave your best for the day is probably just a
filler anyway, so either separate workouts or a balanced blend should give
better results.


It is true if you want better mile times you need to run fresh. But you
don't run the mile for time everytime you run. I would think if you wanted
to increase your strength to improve your time you would want to do some leg
training on one of your "easy" running days before you run. That was how I
did my weight training when I was racing bicycles. I didn't lift weights on
training ride days (days I rode with the team). But on "non training" ride
days I would do my resistance training then go for a ride. I believed then,
and still do, that this aided in specifity in sports training. It pre
exhausted the muscles for the ride so the muscles actually got worked before
I got winded. Then the next time I did a training ride, I was fresh from not
working out, a bit stronger, and my sprint and hill climbing ability would
improve.


Seems plausible. But going the other way around, that is training with
weights after a long ride, also seems like a reasonable training
strategy. It's like you ride a race and do a sprint to the finish line,
isn't it?

But I think that now we are overanalyzing things. It doesn't matter
much (if any) for someone simply trying to get back in shape.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #32  
Old March 4th 08, 12:26 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Homer Simpson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?


"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...
Dnia 2008-03-03 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...

First Muscle weighs more than fat. It is denser material.

But a pound of muscle weights the same as a pound of fat. It takes the
same amount of calories to carry it around with you all day too, so you
can lose fat without restricting calories. That's what I wrote.


A pound of muscle is much smaller than a pound of fat. Thats why often
even
though a person is getting smaller from losing fat, they don't see a
corresponding loss on the scale. Because the muscle they are building is
keeping the weight from dropping as much.


I don't think that I wrote anything to the contrary.

More effective way of wasting your training effort, probably. If you
want good mile times, you need to run relatively fresh, not after you
depleted yourself off all glycogen (and reason) with heavy squats. If
you
want heavy lifts, cardio is a waste of recovery resources. If you need
both, separate workouts or a mixed routine would work better. Whatever
you do after you already gave your best for the day is probably just a
filler anyway, so either separate workouts or a balanced blend should
give
better results.


It is true if you want better mile times you need to run fresh. But you
don't run the mile for time everytime you run. I would think if you
wanted
to increase your strength to improve your time you would want to do some
leg
training on one of your "easy" running days before you run. That was how
I
did my weight training when I was racing bicycles. I didn't lift weights
on
training ride days (days I rode with the team). But on "non training"
ride
days I would do my resistance training then go for a ride. I believed
then,
and still do, that this aided in specifity in sports training. It pre
exhausted the muscles for the ride so the muscles actually got worked
before
I got winded. Then the next time I did a training ride, I was fresh from
not
working out, a bit stronger, and my sprint and hill climbing ability
would
improve.


Seems plausible. But going the other way around, that is training with
weights after a long ride, also seems like a reasonable training
strategy. It's like you ride a race and do a sprint to the finish line,
isn't it?

But I think that now we are overanalyzing things. It doesn't matter
much (if any) for someone simply trying to get back in shape.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R


Not exactly, and now I am speaking from experience and have no science to
back me up on this, but even on my "non training" rides, especially in the
heat of the summer, after the ride I did not have enough energy to train
effectively on the weights. A sprint would only last a few seconds, about
the length of time it takes to perform one set on the weights. And that
would absolutely finish me. Thats why it worked better for me to lift first,
to pre exhaust the muscles, so they would recieve a resistance training
effect specific to my riding, while I was riding.


  #33  
Old March 4th 08, 03:25 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-03 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...

Seems plausible. But going the other way around, that is training with
weights after a long ride, also seems like a reasonable training
strategy. It's like you ride a race and do a sprint to the finish line,
isn't it?

But I think that now we are overanalyzing things. It doesn't matter
much (if any) for someone simply trying to get back in shape.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R


Not exactly, and now I am speaking from experience and have no science to
back me up on this, but even on my "non training" rides, especially in the
heat of the summer, after the ride I did not have enough energy to train
effectively on the weights.


Well, that's how you feel at the end of the race, isn't it? All drained
and burned out.

A sprint would only last a few seconds,


Not really. If you count in all the preparation to a final sprint, it
would take at least several minutes. I used to watch bicycle racing as
a kid every year and I remember that much.

about the length of time it takes to perform one set on the weights.


Good enough. You do some lighter sets and progress to an all out effort
on the final set, just like during a race you play around trying to keep
up with the group of riders and then do an all out effort on a final
stretch.

And that would absolutely finish me.


True.

Thats why it worked better for me to lift first,


You don't know it. You merely guess it. If you tried both approaches
you could at least guestimate, but you didn't.

to pre exhaust the muscles, so they would recieve a resistance training
effect specific to my riding, while I was riding.


I'm not saying it didn't work. It probably did work, since you decided to
do it.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #34  
Old March 4th 08, 03:56 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-01, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Where as weight training will
deplete your glycogen stores so that your cardio will take you into fat
burning phase much quicker making both modes of training more effective.


More effective way of wasting your training effort, probably.


That's an over simplification.

It really depends on the workouts. Any kind of *intense* workout will suffer if
it follows another workout. But you can do a recovery jog any time -- after weights,
after a hard set of intervals, etc.

Likewise, you probably could do a weights workout after a run, but you'd really need
to lower your expectations.

If you
want good mile times, you need to run relatively fresh, not after you
depleted yourself off all glycogen (and reason) with heavy squats. If you


Sure, doing a set of squats before a race is just plain dumb. But doing a set of squats
before an easy jog is just fine.

want heavy lifts, cardio is a waste of recovery resources. If you need
both, separate workouts or a mixed routine would work better. Whatever


Well, sort of. One key difference between running and weight training is that
running usually includes a lot of easy aerobic running.

you do after you already gave your best for the day is probably just a
filler anyway, so either separate workouts or a balanced blend should give
better results.


Here's a sample program:

day 1: weights, recovery run
day 2: interval workout
day 3: weights, recovery run
day 4: tempo run
day 5: weights (including primary leg workout), recovery run
day 6: recovery run or day off
day 7: long run

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #35  
Old March 4th 08, 04:02 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-03, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Seems plausible. But going the other way around, that is training with
weights after a long ride, also seems like a reasonable training
strategy. It's like you ride a race and do a sprint to the finish line,
isn't it?


No, it's quite different (you're not on a bike!). Cross training isn't specific, so
trying to simulate race conditions in cross training exercises is not effective.

It's a stretch to claim that a finishing sprint requires special
"finishing-sprint-specific" training anyway (you don't need to be at the end of
a long workout to train the physiological mechanisms of interest)

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #36  
Old March 4th 08, 04:10 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Homer Simpson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?


"Elflord" wrote in message
...
On 2008-03-01, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Where as weight training will
deplete your glycogen stores so that your cardio will take you into fat
burning phase much quicker making both modes of training more effective.


More effective way of wasting your training effort, probably.


That's an over simplification.

It really depends on the workouts. Any kind of *intense* workout will
suffer if
it follows another workout. But you can do a recovery jog any time --
after weights,
after a hard set of intervals, etc.

Likewise, you probably could do a weights workout after a run, but you'd
really need
to lower your expectations.

If you
want good mile times, you need to run relatively fresh, not after you
depleted yourself off all glycogen (and reason) with heavy squats. If
you


Sure, doing a set of squats before a race is just plain dumb. But doing a
set of squats
before an easy jog is just fine.

want heavy lifts, cardio is a waste of recovery resources. If you need
both, separate workouts or a mixed routine would work better. Whatever


Well, sort of. One key difference between running and weight training is
that
running usually includes a lot of easy aerobic running.

you do after you already gave your best for the day is probably just a
filler anyway, so either separate workouts or a balanced blend should
give
better results.


Here's a sample program:

day 1: weights, recovery run
day 2: interval workout
day 3: weights, recovery run
day 4: tempo run
day 5: weights (including primary leg workout), recovery run
day 6: recovery run or day off
day 7: long run

Cheers,
--
Elflord


BINGO! I like every aspect of your post!


  #37  
Old March 4th 08, 04:14 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Homer Simpson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?


"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...
Dnia 2008-03-03 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...

Seems plausible. But going the other way around, that is training with
weights after a long ride, also seems like a reasonable training
strategy. It's like you ride a race and do a sprint to the finish line,
isn't it?

But I think that now we are overanalyzing things. It doesn't matter
much (if any) for someone simply trying to get back in shape.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R


Not exactly, and now I am speaking from experience and have no science to
back me up on this, but even on my "non training" rides, especially in
the
heat of the summer, after the ride I did not have enough energy to train
effectively on the weights.


Well, that's how you feel at the end of the race, isn't it? All drained
and burned out.

A sprint would only last a few seconds,


Not really. If you count in all the preparation to a final sprint, it
would take at least several minutes. I used to watch bicycle racing as
a kid every year and I remember that much.


Yes the jockeying for just the right spot in the sprint would take some
time. You didn't want to be right in front because then everyone would draft
you then do their sprints as you began to wear down, you didn't want to be
too far back because when they took off you wouldn't jump fast enough to
catch them. But the sprint itself would only take seconds. About the same
amount of time it takes to do a set on weights....plus I was talking about
weight training on light riding days. If you weight train after the ride you
will not have the energy you need to train effectively enough to even be
wasting your time in the gym. It is always better to lift before cardio.


about the length of time it takes to perform one set on the weights.


Good enough. You do some lighter sets and progress to an all out effort
on the final set, just like during a race you play around trying to keep
up with the group of riders and then do an all out effort on a final
stretch.

And that would absolutely finish me.


True.

Thats why it worked better for me to lift first,


You don't know it. You merely guess it. If you tried both approaches
you could at least guestimate, but you didn't.

to pre exhaust the muscles, so they would recieve a resistance training
effect specific to my riding, while I was riding.


I'm not saying it didn't work. It probably did work, since you decided to
do it.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R



  #38  
Old March 4th 08, 08:15 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-01, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Where as weight training will
deplete your glycogen stores so that your cardio will take you into fat
burning phase much quicker making both modes of training more effective.


More effective way of wasting your training effort, probably.


That's an over simplification.

It really depends on the workouts. Any kind of *intense* workout will suffer if
it follows another workout. But you can do a recovery jog any time -- after weights,
after a hard set of intervals, etc.

Likewise, you probably could do a weights workout after a run, but you'd really need
to lower your expectations.

If you
want good mile times, you need to run relatively fresh, not after you
depleted yourself off all glycogen (and reason) with heavy squats. If you


Sure, doing a set of squats before a race is just plain dumb. But doing a set of squats
before an easy jog is just fine.


Actually that's what I originally suggested. Whatever you do first is
stimulated best, whatever you do later will suffer, so it's a simple
matter of priorities. Whatever you want more, do first.

want heavy lifts, cardio is a waste of recovery resources. If you need
both, separate workouts or a mixed routine would work better. Whatever


Well, sort of. One key difference between running and weight training is that
running usually includes a lot of easy aerobic running.

you do after you already gave your best for the day is probably just a
filler anyway, so either separate workouts or a balanced blend should give
better results.


Here's a sample program:

day 1: weights, recovery run
day 2: interval workout
day 3: weights, recovery run
day 4: tempo run
day 5: weights (including primary leg workout), recovery run
day 6: recovery run or day off
day 7: long run

Cheers,


Can you say, that running after weights will work any better than
running on a different session, even the same day? Or, can you tell
that an easy jog to the gym will kill progress in the weight room?
Or if combining weights with interval type training, like Yuri Sedyk
(sp?) used to do, when he did a set of front squats in between 400 m
laps will surely work worse?

Well, if we are already splitting hairs, I'll try my best. Most runners
who need weights would be people who need more speed than endurance, so
quite probably recovery runs aren't going to make whole lot of a
difference anyway, so why do them at all? And if they are needed, why
do them after weights? After weights we need to rest and eat something,
not go for a jog.

There is this school of thought, which tell you to sip energy and
protein drinks throughout your training session and especially
afterwards. It's probably an extreme approach, and not worth an effort
for most people, but going for a run after weight session is also an
extreme, just the other way around.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #39  
Old March 4th 08, 08:29 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-03, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Seems plausible. But going the other way around, that is training with
weights after a long ride, also seems like a reasonable training
strategy. It's like you ride a race and do a sprint to the finish line,
isn't it?


No, it's quite different (you're not on a bike!).


So you won't fall over and injure yourself, even if you really give
everything you got.

Cross training isn't specific, so
trying to simulate race conditions in cross training exercises is not effective.


How do you know? It's like saying that it makes no sense to follow all
the procedure of lifting competition in training, but Bulgarians used to
train that way and used to dominate the weightlifting competitions too.

It's a stretch to claim that a finishing sprint requires special
"finishing-sprint-specific" training anyway (you don't need to be at the end of
a long workout to train the physiological mechanisms of interest)


Here I thought more about psychology than physiology. Lifting heavy
when you are tired is more about being tough than strong. We must
override some inhibitory reaction which our body uses, probably to spare
energy. It doesn't know that the finish line is just several seconds
away, but we know. And if you know what you want, you should probably
train for it.

Just because it is so hard to lift after an exhausting ride one should
probably do it. That is if there is a similarity between a lift and a
sprint, but we know already that there is one. Lifting is simply safer.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #40  
Old March 4th 08, 08:59 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...

Not really. If you count in all the preparation to a final sprint, it
would take at least several minutes. I used to watch bicycle racing as
a kid every year and I remember that much.


Yes the jockeying for just the right spot in the sprint would take some
time. You didn't want to be right in front because then everyone would draft
you then do their sprints as you began to wear down, you didn't want to be
too far back because when they took off you wouldn't jump fast enough to
catch them. But the sprint itself would only take seconds. About the same
amount of time it takes to do a set on weights....


So what's wrong with progressing with weights up to your target and
giving an all out effort? It seems similar enough.

plus I was talking about
weight training on light riding days. If you weight train after the ride you
will not have the energy you need to train effectively enough to even be
wasting your time in the gym. It is always better to lift before cardio.


We train with weights to build muscles. Why do you think that purely
catabolic cardio is the best follower of an anabolic workout? It seems
to defy the very purpose of weight training.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 




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