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Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 15th 03, 06:20 AM
Brian Link
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Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've calculated
1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am taking a week long break
from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made on one of
the sites I was using to research. It mentioned the fact that HST is
good for building muscle size, but not necessarily muscle strength
(though strength often improves as well). I've also heard this
dichotomy mentioned in other contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs
bodybuilder discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a bigger
muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers, therefore more
mechanical advantage in manipulating a load. Are some fibers more
equal than others?

Thanks

BLink
Brian Link in St. Paul, MN
  #2  
Old October 15th 03, 12:27 PM
Chupacabra
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Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 00:20:17 -0500, Brian Link wrote:

I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've calculated
1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am taking a week long break
from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made on one of
the sites I was using to research. It mentioned the fact that HST is
good for building muscle size, but not necessarily muscle strength
(though strength often improves as well). I've also heard this
dichotomy mentioned in other contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs
bodybuilder discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a bigger
muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers, therefore more
mechanical advantage in manipulating a load. Are some fibers more
equal than others?

Thanks

BLink
Brian Link in St. Paul, MN


Google this group for "sarcoplasmic hypertrophy" + "myofibrillar
hypertrophy" Might not hurt to put Lyle Mcdonald's name as the author.
  #3  
Old October 15th 03, 01:53 PM
Wayne S. Hill
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Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

Brian Link wrote:

I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've
calculated 1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am
taking a week long break from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made
on one of the sites I was using to research. It mentioned
the fact that HST is good for building muscle size, but not
necessarily muscle strength (though strength often improves
as well). I've also heard this dichotomy mentioned in other
contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs bodybuilder
discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a
bigger muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers,
therefore more mechanical advantage in manipulating a load.
Are some fibers more equal than others?


Repeat after me: you get what you train for.

Most people will get stronger doing HST. The main people who
won't are already near their genetic limit for muscle
development (so it's tough to add muscle) or highly trained
for limit strength (so they'll lose some of that in changing
their routine toward hypertrophy development). If your
ultimate interest is in developing limit strength, HST could
still be just what the doctor ordered, but you'll need to
follow up the hypertrophy development with a routine that
stresses limit strength development.

--
-Wayne
  #4  
Old October 15th 03, 02:10 PM
Jay
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Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

good quote, "you get what you train for"
"Wayne S. Hill" wrote in message
...
Brian Link wrote:

I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've
calculated 1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am
taking a week long break from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made
on one of the sites I was using to research. It mentioned
the fact that HST is good for building muscle size, but not
necessarily muscle strength (though strength often improves
as well). I've also heard this dichotomy mentioned in other
contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs bodybuilder
discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a
bigger muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers,
therefore more mechanical advantage in manipulating a load.
Are some fibers more equal than others?


Repeat after me: you get what you train for.

Most people will get stronger doing HST. The main people who
won't are already near their genetic limit for muscle
development (so it's tough to add muscle) or highly trained
for limit strength (so they'll lose some of that in changing
their routine toward hypertrophy development). If your
ultimate interest is in developing limit strength, HST could
still be just what the doctor ordered, but you'll need to
follow up the hypertrophy development with a routine that
stresses limit strength development.

--
-Wayne



  #5  
Old October 15th 03, 02:29 PM
Kirk Roy
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Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

Wayne S. Hill wrote:
Most people will get stronger doing HST. The main people who
won't are already near their genetic limit for muscle
development (so it's tough to add muscle) or highly trained
for limit strength (so they'll lose some of that in changing
their routine toward hypertrophy development).


I think most of us are so far from genetic limits or being highly trained
that even specialized programs have lots of general applicability. My
current 5RMs were set doing HST.

If your
ultimate interest is in developing limit strength, HST could
still be just what the doctor ordered, but you'll need to
follow up the hypertrophy development with a routine that
stresses limit strength development.


This is what I do as a part of my mainly powerlifting oriented training...
I just got back on HST last week.

Kirk
  #6  
Old October 15th 03, 02:46 PM
Wayne S. Hill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

Kirk Roy wrote:

Wayne S. Hill wrote:
Most people will get stronger doing HST. The main people
who won't are already near their genetic limit for muscle
development (so it's tough to add muscle) or highly trained
for limit strength (so they'll lose some of that in
changing their routine toward hypertrophy development).


I think most of us are so far from genetic limits or being
highly trained that even specialized programs have lots of
general applicability. My current 5RMs were set doing HST.


I agree.

--
-Wayne
  #7  
Old October 15th 03, 02:54 PM
Chupacabra
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

On 15 Oct 2003 12:53:11 GMT, "Wayne S. Hill" wrote:

Brian Link wrote:

I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've
calculated 1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am
taking a week long break from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made
on one of the sites I was using to research. It mentioned
the fact that HST is good for building muscle size, but not
necessarily muscle strength (though strength often improves
as well). I've also heard this dichotomy mentioned in other
contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs bodybuilder
discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a
bigger muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers,
therefore more mechanical advantage in manipulating a load.
Are some fibers more equal than others?


Repeat after me: you get what you train for.


Right, barbell penis stretches it is.

Thanks!!!


Most people will get stronger doing HST. The main people who
won't are already near their genetic limit for muscle
development (so it's tough to add muscle) or highly trained
for limit strength (so they'll lose some of that in changing
their routine toward hypertrophy development). If your
ultimate interest is in developing limit strength, HST could
still be just what the doctor ordered, but you'll need to
follow up the hypertrophy development with a routine that
stresses limit strength development.


  #8  
Old October 15th 03, 03:12 PM
Bob MacWilliam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

Brian Link wrote in message . ..
I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've calculated
1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am taking a week long break
from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made on one of
the sites I was using to research. It mentioned the fact that HST is
good for building muscle size, but not necessarily muscle strength
(though strength often improves as well). I've also heard this
dichotomy mentioned in other contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs
bodybuilder discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a bigger
muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers, therefore more
mechanical advantage in manipulating a load. Are some fibers more
equal than others?

Thanks

BLink
Brian Link in St. Paul, MN



Well I'll assume this is a serious question. I'm not so sure though
because of the total misunderstanding of the concept of mechanical
advantage. But here goes...

First of all mechanical advantage is just that - mechanical. The
concept is separate from muscles completely, but when used in a
biomechanical context it usually refers to the relative position of
muscle insertions and lever lengths and related concepts. For
example, all else being equal (insertions etc), a person with shorter
forearms will have a mechanical advantage over someone with longer
forearms when performing DB curls - nothing to do with muscle size.

As far as the muscle size/strength thing, I do not know all of the
details but I think I can summarize. The concepts are clearly
related, but not the same. If you lift progressively heavier weight
repeatedly, for long enough, you will most likely get bigger AND
stronger. However, one can get stronger without getting bigger -
powerlifters want this if they care about their weight. This has to
do with neural adaptations and muscle efficacy/efficiency. A more
fully-firing muscle can be stronger than the same sized muscle that is
not as "fully-firing". Heavy weight/low reps tends to work this end
of the spectrum more. Higher (8-12 maybe) reps cause more of a size
adaptation. Of course this is not black and white, the gray area
in-between is always there.

Bob
  #9  
Old October 15th 03, 04:23 PM
Hoff
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Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

"Wayne S. Hill" wrote in message
...
Brian Link wrote:

I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've
calculated 1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am
taking a week long break from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made
on one of the sites I was using to research. It mentioned
the fact that HST is good for building muscle size, but not
necessarily muscle strength (though strength often improves
as well). I've also heard this dichotomy mentioned in other
contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs bodybuilder
discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a
bigger muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers,
therefore more mechanical advantage in manipulating a load.
Are some fibers more equal than others?


Repeat after me: you get what you train for.

Most people will get stronger doing HST. The main people who
won't are already near their genetic limit for muscle
development (so it's tough to add muscle) or highly trained
for limit strength (so they'll lose some of that in changing
their routine toward hypertrophy development). If your
ultimate interest is in developing limit strength, HST could
still be just what the doctor ordered, but you'll need to
follow up the hypertrophy development with a routine that
stresses limit strength development.


Word ($1 to someone)

My best strength gains have come from following a HST-like cycle with a
straight powerlifting cycle.

Hopefully, I'll be able to say the same in a couple weeks

Hoff
--
Learn it. Know it. Live it.

http://home.comcast.net/~mfw/
(Unofficial FAQ Addendum)


  #10  
Old October 15th 03, 06:21 PM
Lyle McDonald
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Posts: n/a
Default Starting HST - Muscle size vs muscle strength?

Brian Link wrote:

I've decided to sit down and figure out how to do HST. I've calculated
1RM with the handy calculator at ExRx, and am taking a week long break
from lifting before I start.

The one thing that has me confused though is a comment made on one of
the sites I was using to research. It mentioned the fact that HST is
good for building muscle size, but not necessarily muscle strength
(though strength often improves as well). I've also heard this
dichotomy mentioned in other contexts.. such as the powerlifter vs
bodybuilder discussions and the bricklayer thread.

How can this be possible? I mean, from the layman's view a bigger
muscle would theoretically have more muscle fibers,


No, it has bigger fibers.
NOT more muscle fibers.

There is also the sarcoplasmic (non-contractile) component which, wihle
it contributes to visual size, does not increase strength.

therefore more
mechanical advantage in manipulating a load. Are some fibers more
equal than others?


The issue you're missing is that of neural effects.

Simplistically speaking:

Strength = fiber cross sectional area * neural factors

Where neural factors includes a lot of different stuff.

HST only works to optimize the first. You will get stronger with HST,
but not nearly as strong as if you do pure strength training to improve
the neural factors.

Lyle
 




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