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Basic navigational skills badly missing



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 25th 05, 07:50 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

Rodders wrote
4 men who were found after a search in the Cairngorms had good equipment but
poor navigational skills were a few miles from where they thought they were.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4467894.stm

I heard that they called for help via a mobile phone, but there location
was being traced by triangulating from the phone masts.

Why on earth didn't they have a GPS?
--
Gordon Harris
  #12  
Old November 25th 05, 07:52 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

Peter Clinch wrote
wrote:

I wonder if they had a GPS?


I would guess not, but one should be very wary of substituting
technology for experience. If you can't do without one then I'd
question whether it would be a good idea to be up there anyway.

Pete.

Yes, but - they would have saved the MRT considerable time and effort,
and time could have been critical if they had been hypothermic.
--
Gordon Harris
  #13  
Old November 25th 05, 08:26 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

The message
from Daytona contains these words:

"They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
spending the night in survival bags."


Survival bags and not tents ?


You carry a tent on a day walk? If it had been me I might not have even
had a survival bag. (OTOH I wouldn't have got lost).

"John Allen, of Cairngorm Mountain Rescue team, said: "This party had
decent equipment."


"Inspector Graham Gibb, of Braemar Mountain Rescue Team, who
co-ordinated the search, said the men were lucky to be alive.


If we had failed to find them. I don't think they could have survived
another night under the conditions that were forecast."


These comments appear to contradict themselves. The strong winds and
gales were widely forecast. I don't know what the forecast was for
Wednesday/Thursday but for Saturday MWIS says -1 feeling like -16 due
to wind chill. I don't consider that that is so unusual at this time
of year in Scotland, therefore they were badly equipped. The fact that
they were reduced to using survival bags rather than tents seems to
back that up.


I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Their problem was not lack of
equipment but lack of navigational ability. Sitting around waiting to be
rescued for another 24 hours with little or no food they would be more
at risk from hypothermia than if they had set off home when daylight
returned.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)
  #14  
Old November 25th 05, 08:46 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

Roger wrote:

The message
from Daytona contains these words:

"They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
spending the night in survival bags."


Survival bags and not tents ?


You carry a tent on a day walk?


A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

Daytona
  #15  
Old November 25th 05, 09:00 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:46:44 +0000, Daytona wrote:

Roger wrote:

The message
from Daytona contains these words:

"They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
spending the night in survival bags."


Survival bags and not tents ?


You carry a tent on a day walk?


A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

Daytona


I think not. I *never* carry a tent on a day walk, whatever the
forecast and wherever I'm walking. And I've never known anyone who
does.
--

Paul Rooney
  #16  
Old November 25th 05, 09:27 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

Paul Rooney wrote:

Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk?


A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.


I think not. I *never* carry a tent on a day walk, whatever the
forecast and wherever I'm walking. And I've never known anyone who
does.


Same here. I could easily carry my Laser, but I'd be more inclined to
carry a bivi bag. I've bivvied in sub zero temps with no problems. The
important thing is a sleeping bag. A bivi and my Marmot would be a very
light combination, and I guess the Marmot would keep me alive if not exactly
warm in current conditions.

Paul


  #17  
Old November 25th 05, 09:31 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

On 25 Nov 2005 16:33:41 GMT, Roos Eisma wrote:

(Richard Webb) writes:

Mine let me down badly last night on Corstorphine Hill, and I had to
retire on the onset of hypothermia symptyoms. (orienteering)


At least I sent you through some warm spruce trees last weekend on
Kinnoull Hill :-)



mmm!
They were suitably prickly - but I kept getting stuck in mazes of
windthrow.. What a lovely day.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/81939

Hope we get one like that at Norman's Law.

Richard Webb
  #18  
Old November 25th 05, 09:31 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing


It is a pity that the article doesn't say where they were found.
Navigating from Macdui to Cairngorm is relatively straightforward and it
is difficult to see how they could have gone so wrong unless they made
an absolutely monumental blunder and ended up on Beinn Mheadhoin but
even that doesn't really warrant "a number of miles away". Derry
Cairngorm anyone?


I expect that the MRT there are a bit touchy of folk being reported
missing on the wrong hill after a certain high publicity rescue
involving a Cairngorm (Derry) MacDui mix up in the recent past.

http://bubl.ac.uk/org/tacit/tac/tac25/tvmagazi.htm

Richard Webb
  #19  
Old November 25th 05, 09:41 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:36:15 -0000, "Paul Saunders"
wrote:


But if they'd actually checked the forecast, they'd have had a pretty good
idea. The BBC forecast these conditions last Sunday.


The BBC (and others) did indeed forecast these conditions. The
predicted that they would arrive sometime around dawn on Thursday.
These walkers went out on Wednesday, before the weather turned. It
sounds from some reports like the conditions changed extremely
quickly.

Given the forecasts, and have had little hesitation going onto the
hills on Wednesday.

S.

--
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  #20  
Old November 25th 05, 09:47 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
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Default Basic navigational skills badly missing

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 12:51:01 GMT, "Rodders"
wrote:

4 men who were found after a search in the Cairngorms had good equipment but
poor navigational skills were a few miles from where they thought they were.


There was some discussion of this on one of the climbing forums, and a
couple of those involved in the rescue joined in. One person said
that the 4 walkers were not in fact 'lost' as claimed, in that they
were just below the summit of Ben Macdui, and knew all along that was
where they were. This is contrary to some press reports that they
thought they were on Cairngorm.

One possibility is that they took a wrong turn somewhere,
re-established their position, but were then overtaken by the bad
weather and decided (wrongly)nto bivvy rather than carry on down.

Another possibility is that they couldn't read a map and were totally
lost.

But from the facts known at the moment, I wouldn't want to say which
was more likely.

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse
 




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