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Trainging - Hills and Mountains



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 20th 04, 01:29 PM
dirtdog
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Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

Disclaimer: I am a hiker and mtn climber at heart and run mostly for
this.

I ran a 37 mile trail run a while back and was surprised at how poorly
the training for the long event got me prepared for mountains
(speaking hiking here – not sure how much running helps the technical
climbs).

My take on it was that the LONG training runs are done at such a low
intensity levels– just the opposite of going from base to summit of a
mountain, a VERY high intensity effort, that they just do not prepare
you well for these types of things (not specific enough). It's like
comparing fast walking to track or hill intervals in my opinion.

Have others had the same experience?

My main question has to do with training to accomplish my goals of
climbing hills fast. I read somewhere that the best hill training is
not to do any, but focus on tempo runs. Any truth to that?
Also, how should I incorporate biking into this schedule? I feel
biking really works the legs in a way I've never felt running.

Thanks in advance for any advice or tips on a training program and
structure
  #2  
Old April 20th 04, 02:08 PM
Doug Freese
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains



dirtdog wrote:
Disclaimer: I am a hiker and mtn climber at heart and run mostly for
this.

I ran a 37 mile trail run a while back and was surprised at how poorly
the training for the long event got me prepared for mountains
(speaking hiking here – not sure how much running helps the technical
climbs).


Ok for general conditioning but not specific enough for hike day.


My take on it was that the LONG training runs are done at such a low
intensity levels– just the opposite of going from base to summit of a
mountain, a VERY high intensity effort, that they just do not prepare
you well for these types of things (not specific enough). It's like
comparing fast walking to track or hill intervals in my opinion.


Agree!!!

Have others had the same experience?

Not to beat the point but specificity is the key. If your doing high
intensity hiking(HIH) and want to get better you need practice this.
OTOH, you can't do just HIH all the time as you need to build a
strong base. In running parlance that would be like saying to be a
faster runner you only need to do speed. Your speed should be
mixture of slow hiking and HIH with necessary rest breaks for recovery.


My main question has to do with training to accomplish my goals of
climbing hills fast. I read somewhere that the best hill training is
not to do any, but focus on tempo runs. Any truth to that?


For the reasons cited above I find that a crock. That's what people
that live in very flat places claim helps. If by helps it means
getting finished before the cutoffs, then maybe. If your working the
hills for time or even comfortable survival, hit those hills(slow
for base and fast for speed).

Also, how should I incorporate biking into this schedule? I feel
biking really works the legs in a way I've never felt running.


I found Mountain biking to be a great cross trainer and most helpful
for hiking parts of my races but not much for running. I would not
substitute it for a specific hike but great for a second workout in
a day or adding a less stressful extra day.



--
Doug Freese
"Caveat Lector"


  #3  
Old April 21st 04, 08:09 AM
Dot
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

dirtdog wrote:
Disclaimer: I am a hiker and mtn climber at heart and run mostly for
this.

I ran a 37 mile trail run a while back and was surprised at how poorly
the training for the long event got me prepared for mountains
(speaking hiking here – not sure how much running helps the technical
climbs).


If the trail run did not have many hills, then I wouldn't expect much
help for hiking and climbing. Steep uphill and downhill running (say
20-30%) use very different muscles from flat or gentle hills.


My take on it was that the LONG training runs are done at such a low
intensity levels– just the opposite of going from base to summit of a
mountain, a VERY high intensity effort, that they just do not prepare
you well for these types of things (not specific enough). It's like
comparing fast walking to track or hill intervals in my opinion.

Have others had the same experience?


What Doug said.

It also may depend on how many hills and how steep they were in your
long runs (one race has 50,000 ft up and resultant down in 100 miles)
and what you're considering for a base to summit effort - like an
average hiking type climb somewhere around 2000-7000 ft or something
like 14,000 ft (Death Valley to Whitney summit).

But, yea, you need to get the high intensity training to perform at high
intensity efforts.


My main question has to do with training to accomplish my goals of
climbing hills fast. I read somewhere that the best hill training is
not to do any, but focus on tempo runs. Any truth to that?


Bull - at least in my limited experience. If you're intending to be fast
hiking above LT, I would think you'd need to train above that level.


Also, how should I incorporate biking into this schedule? I feel
biking really works the legs in a way I've never felt running.


I also mtn bike, at least on the gentler hills I run (still 5-15%
slopes, probably) to get more intensive work than I would running (I'm
being careful of an achilles still). Sometimes i'll bike to the
trailhead and run from there, then bike home (paved bike trail is
somewhat hilly but not as steep as trails).


Thanks in advance for any advice or tips on a training program and
structure


A couple places you might look for hints about training are

http://www.rocknrun.net/main.html
She's an ultrarunner that got into climbing; he's a climber that got
into ultra running after marrying her. They both run and climb now.

http://www.thecavedog.com/
might give you some ideas also.

I didn't see any training ideas on either of their pages, *but* there
might be something buried there. What they do is very relevant to your
goals, I think. Someone mentioned that an issue of UltraRunning mag had
an article on Cave Dog's training, but I haven't seen it.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

  #4  
Old April 21st 04, 10:51 AM
gentolm
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

DUDE my 2 cent worth
to get better on hills one must train on hills. to get faster on hills
one must train faster on hills/.
Dot: does this hold true??? I am planning the helen Klien ultra or the
Grizz 50 miler
plodzilla



Dot wrote:

dirtdog wrote:
Disclaimer: I am a hiker and mtn climber at heart and run mostly for
this.

I ran a 37 mile trail run a while back and was surprised at how poorly
the training for the long event got me prepared for mountains
(speaking hiking here – not sure how much running helps the technical
climbs).


If the trail run did not have many hills, then I wouldn't expect much
help for hiking and climbing. Steep uphill and downhill running (say
20-30%) use very different muscles from flat or gentle hills.


My take on it was that the LONG training runs are done at such a low
intensity levels– just the opposite of going from base to summit of a
mountain, a VERY high intensity effort, that they just do not prepare
you well for these types of things (not specific enough). It's like
comparing fast walking to track or hill intervals in my opinion.

Have others had the same experience?


What Doug said.

It also may depend on how many hills and how steep they were in your
long runs (one race has 50,000 ft up and resultant down in 100 miles)
and what you're considering for a base to summit effort - like an
average hiking type climb somewhere around 2000-7000 ft or something
like 14,000 ft (Death Valley to Whitney summit).

But, yea, you need to get the high intensity training to perform at high
intensity efforts.


My main question has to do with training to accomplish my goals of
climbing hills fast. I read somewhere that the best hill training is
not to do any, but focus on tempo runs. Any truth to that?


Bull - at least in my limited experience. If you're intending to be fast
hiking above LT, I would think you'd need to train above that level.

Also, how should I incorporate biking into this schedule? I feel
biking really works the legs in a way I've never felt running.


I also mtn bike, at least on the gentler hills I run (still 5-15%
slopes, probably) to get more intensive work than I would running (I'm
being careful of an achilles still). Sometimes i'll bike to the
trailhead and run from there, then bike home (paved bike trail is
somewhat hilly but not as steep as trails).


Thanks in advance for any advice or tips on a training program and
structure


A couple places you might look for hints about training are

http://www.rocknrun.net/main.html
She's an ultrarunner that got into climbing; he's a climber that got
into ultra running after marrying her. They both run and climb now.

http://www.thecavedog.com/
might give you some ideas also.

I didn't see any training ideas on either of their pages, *but* there
might be something buried there. What they do is very relevant to your
goals, I think. Someone mentioned that an issue of UltraRunning mag had
an article on Cave Dog's training, but I haven't seen it.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

  #5  
Old April 21st 04, 02:55 PM
Lobo Horsesass
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

The cave dog. Southern A.T.
form the dirt dog.
Whats this make me. Horsesass dog.
Rules no bike.
I well read and think about this.
I got my old job back. yesterday to my surprise........ and said I could
go to my kids weddings. and A.T. trip as long as it wasn't to long.
around here past 19 month I been biking and recover from leg hurt at a
ultra from Hell Michigan in 2002 fall. a big pop. a scar under knee,
forms from inside doc said size of rip from knee cap alone was over 3
inch..ow eerie. let tee resent back strain Dot......
O.K. I saw the 165 mile bike ride from houston to dallas on t.v.
yesterday. at first day of work I got to re learn to work. lol. I just
stand there and look. lol I am stupid. lol.
back sore and I walk around like a mule. lol...
O.k. not the same butt 165 miles is still a 165 miles straight...... or
a race.
I well be there for kids weddings. but the A.T. trip. it is up to
me.....yes. i would like to work again. picking up 10 cent cans to
live evan if I do get food for past few......it has been 19 month
now.....and food do help. butt to live off the land. mom said I would
last a day...... I am a 49 year old painter....... rules......old
dog........
For people who like this kind of junk?
Danggggggg
I was going to port Huron for a ride and look pick up 10 cent cans to
eat gig. butt then again it is a job..........being
sofingretodded.......
The doc said the back and all be good to heel liver of mine too.
worn...... butt normal. these trains do more good evan if they hurt.
(me from doc , not you)......Oh hay dog...Are you pack yet? might be
a month or 2........well maybe a month.....and some..........My
backpack in rain because stink of drunk snails.......I like soap. butt
itch and back sore eeeeee. sorry :).....
Hills 6,000 feet and fastest..Maybe just to do....
time from peak to peak? I like a this. get back later. Things to
do........

  #6  
Old April 21st 04, 03:53 PM
dirtdog
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

Thanks for the words everyone and the websites.
Time to hit the hills.
  #7  
Old April 21st 04, 05:52 PM
Dot
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

dirtdog wrote:
Thanks for the words everyone and the websites.
Time to hit the hills.


BTW, here's a clip of the post where crafty counterpuncher made me aware
of CaveDog's training being in UR. I just remembered he had a quick
summary in the post. When CaveDog beat the course record at Barkley
(100+miles, 50+k ft) last year, I think he camped there for a couple
weeks beforehand running the route forward and backward so he knew how
to handle it - specificity and hills. Enjoy!

From crafty counterpuncher on 2004/04/02:
there was a great profile on cave dog in ultrarunning magazine a few
months back that talked about his training. i recall he said he
basically takes off large chunks of the year completely from running,
then jumps back in with 4 hour runs up and down stadium steps with
some insane elevation gains. this is followed with some pretty serious
run/hikes, 12 hours or so. i remember him also talking about the
importance of training on terrain you plan to race. we're talking
about a man here who has to be one of the world's best speed climbers,
he has some serious genetic gifts. he absoultely destroyed the
barkley course last year, and in some incredibly difficult conditions.
so far as i know, he also still has the speed record for the 54
colorado 14'ers.




--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

  #8  
Old April 21st 04, 05:59 PM
Dot
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

gentolm wrote:
DUDE my 2 cent worth
to get better on hills one must train on hills. to get faster on hills
one must train faster on hills/.
Dot: does this hold true??? I am planning the helen Klien ultra or the
Grizz 50 miler
plodzilla


Absolutely! As mentioned, specificity is a major key to training. But
also be careful not to overdo it. You might consider gentler hills for
some workouts and larger or steeper ones for others - depending on
objectives.

Good luck!

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

  #9  
Old April 21st 04, 09:51 PM
Donovan Rebbechi
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

In article , dirtdog wrote:
Disclaimer: I am a hiker and mtn climber at heart and run mostly for
this.

I ran a 37 mile trail run a while back and was surprised at how poorly
the training for the long event got me prepared for mountains
(speaking hiking here – not sure how much running helps the technical
climbs).


Specficity applies -- running utilises muscles differently to hiking. In
hiking, you may also be carrying a heavy pack which does make a difference.

When considering the application of specificity, you need to think very
carefully about deviations from the activity you're training for and be mindful
of how specific your training is.

My take on it was that the LONG training runs are done at such a low
intensity levels– just the opposite of going from base to summit of a
mountain, a VERY high intensity effort, that they just do not prepare
you well for these types of things (not specific enough). It's like
comparing fast walking to track or hill intervals in my opinion.


Running long prepares you to run long
Running on hills prepares you to run on hills.

The components of fitness these activities train/require are different, so if
you want to get good at running long AND running on hills, you need to do both
long runs and hill runs (though you don't have to do them at the same time)

Have others had the same experience?

My main question has to do with training to accomplish my goals of
climbing hills fast.


Hill training.

I read somewhere that the best hill training is
not to do any, but focus on tempo runs. Any truth to that?


Conventional speed work on flats will help, but it's not as effective as more
specific hill training, because there are subtle differences in the way your
muscles work uphills compared to on flats.

Also, how should I incorporate biking into this schedule? I feel
biking really works the legs in a way I've never felt running.


Biking will help your general aerobic conditioning, but it's non-specific, so
perceived strength work your legs get will not have much impact on running.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
  #10  
Old April 22nd 04, 12:06 PM
dirtdog
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Posts: n/a
Default Trainging - Hills and Mountains

Ok - Specificity. In my case, run and hike hills.

Next question is volume and frequency. Are 3 hill interval efforts per
week too much? 2? 1?
What is the optimal consideration for (times/wk or any other metric)
hills, medium distance, long, bike, leg squats with weights (worth it
or am I getting plenty with the hill runs and biking?)

thanks

Oh, thanks for the Cave Dog clip. I'm going to try and find more about
his training schedule.
 




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