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meet report...still learning



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 25th 03, 02:14 AM
whit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning


"John M. Williams" wrote in message
...
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter

thinking. I
realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But it ignores

that
some people have better upper body strength, while others have

better
lower body strength.


i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily training

related.

i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in

relation to a
reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since they

compete in
bench and dead (and squat)

it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional vis

a visw
powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

No. If you read what I said below ...

Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.

The best
totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the same

person,
but that person almost never has the best bench press.

... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a similar
distribution of lifts. They may not have the best totals, but as

I
said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower body strength.


ok. i see what you mean.

do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly more,

in
relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is

disproportional.

most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to upper

body,
after all

Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the lifts
from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift that was a

solid
85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench press. And that

was
despite your short arms and my long arms, which, according to Aaron,
should yield opposite results.

Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength, while
others have better lower body strength. As I said, check the record
lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.

Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so than the
deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good bench press without
extraordinary upper body strength.

"Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not only muscle
fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
knowledge/application of technique. The only reasonable way to
objectively measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a specific
movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever you want,
but the only way to objectively combine all the factors is to say that
whoever lifts the most is the strongest.


You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has the

strongest
upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even necessarily the
best indicator of upper body strength.

All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench press. Nothing
more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total. And this applies to
other sports as well. For many bench technicians who use the arch they
have very little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps at
lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body strength.

I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up - which is an
indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict press indicates

upper
body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench press is only
one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have a good bench

press
without extraordinary upper body strength.


And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves, so they
may not have *overall* better lower body strength.

But you know what I mean, and your observations don't effectively
change what I'm saying. You know the records; you've seen the
lifters; and you know that there tends to be a division, even amongst
those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most meets
have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors
lower body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best
totals.


yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body lifts (ok, dead is
mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body lift.

if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and squat or...

bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and squat or...

well, you get the point.

i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body than ol'ing.
especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd knee bend, thigh brush, etc.)
the upper body really is not taxed enough imo

whit


  #22  
Old August 25th 03, 02:30 AM
Keith Hobman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning

In article , "whit"
wrote:

"John M. Williams" wrote in message
...
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter

thinking. I
realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But it ignores

that
some people have better upper body strength, while others have

better
lower body strength.


i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily training

related.

i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in

relation to a
reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since they

compete in
bench and dead (and squat)

it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional vis

a visw
powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

No. If you read what I said below ...

Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.

The best
totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the same

person,
but that person almost never has the best bench press.

... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a similar
distribution of lifts. They may not have the best totals, but as

I
said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower body strength.


ok. i see what you mean.

do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly more,

in
relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is

disproportional.

most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to upper

body,
after all

Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the lifts
from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift that was a

solid
85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench press. And that

was
despite your short arms and my long arms, which, according to Aaron,
should yield opposite results.

Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength, while
others have better lower body strength. As I said, check the record
lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.

Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so than the
deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good bench press without
extraordinary upper body strength.

"Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not only muscle
fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
knowledge/application of technique. The only reasonable way to
objectively measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a specific
movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever you want,
but the only way to objectively combine all the factors is to say that
whoever lifts the most is the strongest.

You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has the

strongest
upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even necessarily the
best indicator of upper body strength.

All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench press. Nothing
more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total. And this applies to
other sports as well. For many bench technicians who use the arch they
have very little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps at
lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body strength.

I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up - which is an
indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict press indicates

upper
body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench press is only
one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have a good bench

press
without extraordinary upper body strength.


And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves, so they
may not have *overall* better lower body strength.

But you know what I mean, and your observations don't effectively
change what I'm saying. You know the records; you've seen the
lifters; and you know that there tends to be a division, even amongst
those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most meets
have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors
lower body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best
totals.


yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body lifts (ok, dead is
mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body lift.

if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and squat or...

bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and squat or...

well, you get the point.

i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body than ol'ing.
especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd knee bend, thigh brush, etc.)
the upper body really is not taxed enough imo


BRING BACK THE PRESS!!

:^)

(I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on that!)

--
Keith Hobman

The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored
  #23  
Old August 25th 03, 02:49 AM
Lyle McDonald
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning

"John M. Williams" wrote:

"whit" wrote:

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you "smoked" a 319
bp, albeit with a shirt


Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter thinking. I
realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But it ignores that
some people have better upper body strength, while others have better
lower body strength.


As well, the anatomy that lends itself to good benching, also lends to
****ty DL'ing. And vice versa.

Lyle
  #24  
Old August 25th 03, 03:30 AM
whit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning


"Keith Hobman" wrote in message
...
In article , "whit"
wrote:

"John M. Williams" wrote in

message
...
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams"

wrote:
"whit" wrote:

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but

you
"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter

thinking. I
realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But it

ignores
that
some people have better upper body strength, while others

have
better
lower body strength.


i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily

training
related.

i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in

relation to a
reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since they

compete in
bench and dead (and squat)

it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional

vis
a visw
powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

No. If you read what I said below ...

Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting

associations.
The best
totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the

same
person,
but that person almost never has the best bench press.

... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a

similar
distribution of lifts. They may not have the best totals,

but as
I
said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower body strength.


ok. i see what you mean.

do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly

more,
in
relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is

disproportional.

most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to

upper
body,
after all

Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the

lifts
from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift that was a

solid
85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench press. And

that
was
despite your short arms and my long arms, which, according to

Aaron,
should yield opposite results.

Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength, while
others have better lower body strength. As I said, check the

record
lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.

Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so than

the
deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good bench press

without
extraordinary upper body strength.

"Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not only

muscle
fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
knowledge/application of technique. The only reasonable way to
objectively measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a

specific
movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever you want,
but the only way to objectively combine all the factors is to say

that
whoever lifts the most is the strongest.

You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has the

strongest
upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even necessarily

the
best indicator of upper body strength.

All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench press.

Nothing
more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total. And this

applies to
other sports as well. For many bench technicians who use the arch

they
have very little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps

at
lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body strength.

I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up - which is

an
indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict press indicates

upper
body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench press is

only
one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have a good bench

press
without extraordinary upper body strength.

And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves, so they
may not have *overall* better lower body strength.

But you know what I mean, and your observations don't effectively
change what I'm saying. You know the records; you've seen the
lifters; and you know that there tends to be a division, even amongst
those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most meets
have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors
lower body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best
totals.


yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body lifts (ok,

dead is
mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body lift.

if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and squat or...

bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and squat or...

well, you get the point.

i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body than ol'ing.
especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd knee bend, thigh brush,

etc.)
the upper body really is not taxed enough imo


BRING BACK THE PRESS!!

:^)

(I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on that!)

--
Keith Hobman


well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility of actually agreeing
with you, but when you're right, you're right.

:l

whit


The email address above is a spam sink - no longer monitored



  #25  
Old August 25th 03, 04:17 AM
Lee Michaels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning


"whit" wrote in message
...

"Keith Hobman" wrote in message
...
In article , "whit"
wrote:

"John M. Williams" wrote in

message
...
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams"

wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams"

wrote:
"whit" wrote:

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but

you
"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter
thinking. I
realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But it

ignores
that
some people have better upper body strength, while

others
have
better
lower body strength.


i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily

training
related.

i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in
relation to a
reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since they
compete in
bench and dead (and squat)

it's not disproportional for many, but it's

disproportional
vis
a visw
powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

No. If you read what I said below ...

Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting

associations.
The best
totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the

same
person,
but that person almost never has the best bench press.

... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a

similar
distribution of lifts. They may not have the best totals,

but as
I
said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower body

strength.


ok. i see what you mean.

do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly

more,
in
relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is
disproportional.

most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to

upper
body,
after all

Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the

lifts
from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift that was

a
solid
85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench press. And

that
was
despite your short arms and my long arms, which, according to

Aaron,
should yield opposite results.

Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength,

while
others have better lower body strength. As I said, check the

record
lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.

Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so than

the
deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good bench press

without
extraordinary upper body strength.

"Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not only

muscle
fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
knowledge/application of technique. The only reasonable way to
objectively measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a

specific
movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever you

want,
but the only way to objectively combine all the factors is to say

that
whoever lifts the most is the strongest.

You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has the
strongest
upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even

necessarily
the
best indicator of upper body strength.

All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench press.

Nothing
more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total. And this

applies to
other sports as well. For many bench technicians who use the arch

they
have very little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps

at
lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body strength.

I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up - which

is
an
indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict press

indicates
upper
body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench press is

only
one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have a good

bench
press
without extraordinary upper body strength.

And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves, so they
may not have *overall* better lower body strength.

But you know what I mean, and your observations don't effectively
change what I'm saying. You know the records; you've seen the
lifters; and you know that there tends to be a division, even

amongst
those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most meets
have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors
lower body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best
totals.

yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body lifts (ok,

dead is
mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body lift.

if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and squat or...

bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and squat or...

well, you get the point.

i think powerlifting is less biased towards lower body than ol'ing.
especially with the 'modern technique' (2nd knee bend, thigh brush,

etc.)
the upper body really is not taxed enough imo


BRING BACK THE PRESS!!

:^)

(I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on that!)

--
Keith Hobman


well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility of actually

agreeing
with you, but when you're right, you're right.

Hey Whitney, there is somebody pretending to be you in this thread!!





  #26  
Old August 25th 03, 04:25 AM
David Cohen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning


"Lee Michaels" wrote
"whit" wrote
"Keith Hobman" wrote


SNIP ABOUT 8 KB

(I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on that!)


well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility of actually

agreeing
with you, but when you're right, you're right.

Hey Whitney, there is somebody pretending to be you in this thread!!


No. It's the Antisnipinator himself.

David


  #27  
Old August 25th 03, 04:50 AM
John M. Williams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning

"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but you
"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter

thinking. I
realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But it ignores

that
some people have better upper body strength, while others have

better
lower body strength.


i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily training

related.

i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in

relation to a
reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since they

compete in
bench and dead (and squat)

it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional vis

a visw
powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

No. If you read what I said below ...

Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.

The best
totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the same

person,
but that person almost never has the best bench press.

... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a similar
distribution of lifts. They may not have the best totals, but as

I
said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower body strength.


ok. i see what you mean.

do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly more,

in
relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is

disproportional.

most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to upper

body,
after all

Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the lifts
from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift that was a

solid
85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench press. And that

was
despite your short arms and my long arms, which, according to Aaron,
should yield opposite results.

Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength, while
others have better lower body strength. As I said, check the record
lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.

Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so than the
deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good bench press without
extraordinary upper body strength.

"Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not only muscle
fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
knowledge/application of technique. The only reasonable way to
objectively measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a specific
movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever you want,
but the only way to objectively combine all the factors is to say that
whoever lifts the most is the strongest.

You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has the

strongest
upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even necessarily the
best indicator of upper body strength.

All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench press. Nothing
more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total. And this applies to
other sports as well. For many bench technicians who use the arch they
have very little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps at
lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body strength.

I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up - which is an
indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict press indicates

upper
body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench press is only
one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have a good bench

press
without extraordinary upper body strength.


And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves, so they
may not have *overall* better lower body strength.

But you know what I mean, and your observations don't effectively
change what I'm saying. You know the records; you've seen the
lifters; and you know that there tends to be a division, even amongst
those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most meets
have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors
lower body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best
totals.


yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body lifts (ok, dead is
mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body lift.

if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and squat or...

bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and squat or...


Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in addition to
the matter already under discussion, but Keith's comment about pullups
made me think again about this proposition, which I have thought about
many times before ...

Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting; it's a major
compound lift like the others, and the parameters of the lift could be
judged very easily -- dead drop to hooking the chin over the bar.

We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why. Because
the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the big-legged fat guys who
would be lucky if they could get a single bodyweight chin. The guys
like me, with ****ty squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100
over bodyweight, would dilute the living **** out of their totals.

This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength vs.
lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift powerlifting, by its
nature, attracts those whose predominant strength is in the lower
body. The bench press is added to "round things out," but we all know
it doesn't significantly add to the totals compared to the other
lifts. And from this, I draw the following conclusions:

[1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between bench press
vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards of most
powerlifters because, for them, those numbers are already skewed.

[2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for powerlifting, will
never be added because it would seriously dilute the totals of the
classic bottom-heavy lifters who are most attracted to powerlifting.
  #28  
Old August 25th 03, 05:07 AM
Lisa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning


"Will" wrote ...
Well, I continue to learn as I start to pursue powerlifting. Did a USPF
push-pull meet in Napa, CA today.
snip
At least I hit my goal of 1.5x bodyweight at a meet...but this is not
how I wanted to do it.
snip
Next was 424, double
bodyweight. Got it,


Despite all the other noise in this thread I think it needs to be
recognized that you had a pretty successful meet. Factor in some of the
unhelpful variables (starvation, no coach, useless shirt) and *I* think it
was some damned respectable lifting, and I appreciate the meet report.

And next meet I'm lifting at whatever I weigh fully fed


Good idea.
And we'll need JPEGs. With legs.
TIA
---
Lisa


  #29  
Old August 25th 03, 06:23 AM
whit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning


"John M. Williams" wrote in message
...
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote:
John M. Williams wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote:
"whit" wrote:
"John M. Williams"

wrote:
"whit" wrote:

your deadlift is way disproportional to your bench.

you didn't do a 450 deadlift at 221 lbs bodyweight, but

you
"smoked" a 319 bp, albeit with a shirt

Very unlike you, Whit. Standard lower-body powerlifter

thinking. I
realize that powerlifting scoring favors that. But it

ignores
that
some people have better upper body strength, while others

have
better
lower body strength.


i am aware of that. i didn't say it was necessarily training

related.

i said it was disproportional. it IS disproportional, in

relation to a
reasonable group of comparison - powerlifters, since they

compete in
bench and dead (and squat)

it's not disproportional for many, but it's disproportional

vis
a visw
powerlifting, or push-pull meets.

No. If you read what I said below ...

Look at the record lifts in most powerlifting associations.

The best
totals, deadlift, and squat are frequently held by the same

person,
but that person almost never has the best bench press.

... you would find that the best bench-pressers have a similar
distribution of lifts. They may not have the best totals, but

as
I
said before, powerlifting scoring favors lower body strength.


ok. i see what you mean.

do you not think that MOST people can deadlift significantly

more,
in
relation to their bench, than this guy. iow, he is

disproportional.

most people ARE much stronger in their lower as compared to

upper
body,
after all

Stronger, yes, but with different distributions. Compare the

lifts
from our respective first meets. You had a deadlift that was a

solid
85 pounds better than mine. I had a better bench press. And

that
was
despite your short arms and my long arms, which, according to

Aaron,
should yield opposite results.

Bottom line: Some people have better upper-body strength, while
others have better lower body strength. As I said, check the

record
lifts in several PL associations, and you'll see what I mean.

Insertions can also be crucial in the bench press - more so than

the
deadlift. So its also possible to be have a good bench press

without
extraordinary upper body strength.

"Strength" is a highly intangible concept, involving not only muscle
fiber content, but also neuromuscular adaptation (firing rates,
recruitment, etc.), tolerance for fatigue, mental state, and
knowledge/application of technique. The only reasonable way to
objectively measure it is outcome: how much one can lift in a

specific
movement. You can tweak the definition to favor whatever you want,
but the only way to objectively combine all the factors is to say

that
whoever lifts the most is the strongest.

You can't say the person who has the biggest bench press has the

strongest
upper body tho - since the bench is not the sole or even necessarily

the
best indicator of upper body strength.

All the biggest bench press indicates is the biggest bench press.

Nothing
more or less. Ditto for squat and deadlift and total. And this applies

to
other sports as well. For many bench technicians who use the arch they
have very little need of overall upper body strength - just triceps at
lockout. They have huge benches with average upper body strength.

I've seen guys with huge benches who can't do one pull-up - which is

an
indicator of upper body strength as well. The strict press indicates

upper
body strength. There are a lot of indicators and the bench press is

only
one of them. So I say it again - it is possible to have a good bench

press
without extraordinary upper body strength.

And a lot of big squatters have comparatively skinny calves, so they
may not have *overall* better lower body strength.

But you know what I mean, and your observations don't effectively
change what I'm saying. You know the records; you've seen the
lifters; and you know that there tends to be a division, even amongst
those in powersports. It's also one of the reasons that most meets
have separate bench press competitions. Unweighted scoring favors
lower body lifts, and the best bench-pressers don't turn in the best
totals.


yes. this is also skewed because there are two lower body lifts (ok, dead

is
mostly lower body and lower back) and only one upper body lift.

if they had bench press and push press, and deadlift and squat or...

bench press and weighted pullup and and deadlift and squat or...


Indeed. And maybe this will reflect personal feelings in addition to
the matter already under discussion, but Keith's comment about pullups
made me think again about this proposition, which I have thought about
many times before ...

Weighted pullups would be a great lift for powerlifting; it's a major
compound lift like the others, and the parameters of the lift could be
judged very easily -- dead drop to hooking the chin over the bar.

We all know that will *never* happen. And we all know why. Because
the bread-and-butter of powerlifting are the big-legged fat guys who
would be lucky if they could get a single bodyweight chin. The guys
like me, with ****ty squats and deadlifts, but who can chin maybe 100
over bodyweight, would dilute the living **** out of their totals.


it would be frigging awesome.

plus, then plers would have nice outer lat development.

heh

This all ties into my argument about upper-body strength vs.
lower-body strength. Full-meet three-lift powerlifting, by its
nature, attracts those whose predominant strength is in the lower
body. The bench press is added to "round things out," but we all know
it doesn't significantly add to the totals compared to the other
lifts. And from this, I draw the following conclusions:


it would also add a strength proportional to bw issue. (well, the squat
includes the bw as well, but it is a much smaller portion of the weight
lifted than the pullup, and excess bw also offers a little advantage in
joint and stomoch bounce, etc. whereas it is a complete hindrance in
pullups)

[1] It is not reasonable to compare the spread between bench press
vs. deadlift or bench press vs. squat with the standards of most
powerlifters because, for them, those numbers are already skewed.

[2] Weighted chins, although a perfect lift for powerlifting, will
never be added because it would seriously dilute the totals of the
classic bottom-heavy lifters who are most attracted to powerlifting.


yes. i think us prettier OLers would do much better

whit


  #30  
Old August 25th 03, 06:24 AM
whit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default meet report...still learning


"David Cohen" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Lee Michaels" wrote
"whit" wrote
"Keith Hobman" wrote


SNIP ABOUT 8 KB

(I know I'm not going to get an atgument from Whit on that!)

well, i should argue just to eliminate the possibility of actually

agreeing
with you, but when you're right, you're right.

Hey Whitney, there is somebody pretending to be you in this thread!!


No. It's the Antisnipinator himself.

David


in the flesh, baybee.

whit





 




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