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Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?



 
 
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  #41  
Old March 4th 08, 02:30 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
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Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-03, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

Seems plausible. But going the other way around, that is training with
weights after a long ride, also seems like a reasonable training
strategy. It's like you ride a race and do a sprint to the finish line,
isn't it?


No, it's quite different (you're not on a bike!).


So you won't fall over and injure yourself, even if you really give
everything you got.


The point is, it's non-specific.

Cross training isn't specific, so
trying to simulate race conditions in cross training exercises is not effective.


How do you know?


Definition of cross training is that it's not specific. You can try as hard as you
like to make weight lifting like cycling, but cycling will still be more like cycling
than weights.

It's like saying that it makes no sense to follow all
the procedure of lifting competition in training, but Bulgarians used to


No, it's not like saying that at all. Weightlifting is specific to weightlifting, but
weightlifting is not specific to cycling!

Here I thought more about psychology than physiology. Lifting heavy


OK, but if you're looking at it from this perspective, it's much better to use
the chosen activity. Much easier to visualize *riding* towards the finish line
if you're actually on a bike (and preferably riding towards some object) !

Just because it is so hard to lift after an exhausting ride one should
probably do it. That is if there is a similarity between a lift and a
sprint, but we know already that there is one. Lifting is simply safer.


The safety argument is a pretty non-compelling one. There are ways one can impose
"lab conditions" on a bike ride without losing specificity (e.g. ride on a bike
trainer or a spinning bike)

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #42  
Old March 4th 08, 02:46 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
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Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Sure, doing a set of squats before a race is just plain dumb. But doing a
set of squats before an easy jog is just fine.


Actually that's what I originally suggested. Whatever you do first is
stimulated best, whatever you do later will suffer,


so it's a simple
matter of priorities. Whatever you want more, do first.


That's overly simplistic, because the notion of "stimulate best" does not
hold up well to scrutiny.

Low intensity exercise does not require "best" stimulus. This notion only makes
sense in the context of near-maximal exercise, which the easy run ain't.

The easy jog might be extremely important -- if you're a distance runner (800m and
up), getting in easy mileage is *very* important, but you can do it after a
race, after a workout, etc.

want heavy lifts, cardio is a waste of recovery resources. If you need
both, separate workouts or a mixed routine would work better. Whatever


Well, sort of. One key difference between running and weight training is that
running usually includes a lot of easy aerobic running.

you do after you already gave your best for the day is probably just a
filler anyway, so either separate workouts or a balanced blend should give
better results.


Here's a sample program:

day 1: weights, recovery run
day 2: interval workout
day 3: weights, recovery run
day 4: tempo run
day 5: weights (including primary leg workout), recovery run
day 6: recovery run or day off
day 7: long run

Cheers,


Can you say, that running after weights will work any better than
running on a different session, even the same day?


No, that would be just fine, but probably not as time-efficient for many people.

Or, can you tell that an easy jog to the gym will kill progress in the weight
room?


Depends on how long the easy jog is. Anything more than an hour will probably
hurt.

Or if combining weights with interval type training, like Yuri Sedyk
(sp?) used to do, when he did a set of front squats in between 400 m
laps will surely work worse?


Can't comment without knowing more about the 400m laps and the squats. If he's
jogging those laps, it's probably fine. If he's running hard, that's like
super-setting. I wouldn't really recommend that.

Well, if we are already splitting hairs, I'll try my best. Most runners
who need weights would be people who need more speed than endurance, so


I'm not at all clear on what you mean by "need" weights. 800m runners and
milers make considerable use of weights, and they do mileage. It's not
uncommon for 5k runners to lift either. If you're going to play hair-splitting
games, you can't start with such a sloppily constructed premise.

quite probably recovery runs aren't going to make whole lot of a
difference anyway, so why do them at all? And if they are needed, why
do them after weights? After weights we need to rest and eat something,
not go for a jog.

There is this school of thought, which tell you to sip energy and
protein drinks throughout your training session and especially
afterwards. It's probably an extreme approach, and not worth an effort
for most people, but going for a run after weight session is also an
extreme, just the other way around.


Not analogous, because it may be more convenient to do the run just after the
weights than it is to do it in a separate session. Doing it in a separate
session is also OK.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #43  
Old March 4th 08, 02:48 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
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Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
plus I was talking about
weight training on light riding days. If you weight train after the ride you
will not have the energy you need to train effectively enough to even be
wasting your time in the gym. It is always better to lift before cardio.


We train with weights to build muscles.


Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.

Why do you think that purely
catabolic cardio is the best follower of an anabolic workout? It seems
to defy the very purpose of weight training.


If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #44  
Old March 4th 08, 10:00 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
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Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
plus I was talking about
weight training on light riding days. If you weight train after the ride you
will not have the energy you need to train effectively enough to even be
wasting your time in the gym. It is always better to lift before cardio.


We train with weights to build muscles.


Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.


Of course you do. You just call it differently, but you definitely do
not care about max lift as much as about muscular endurance. You get
muscular endurance by building "fluffy" size. Ever wondered from where
the phrase "marathon workouts" came?

Why do you think that purely
catabolic cardio is the best follower of an anabolic workout? It seems
to defy the very purpose of weight training.


If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.


Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #45  
Old March 4th 08, 10:17 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
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Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):

No, it's quite different (you're not on a bike!).


So you won't fall over and injure yourself, even if you really give
everything you got.


The point is, it's non-specific.


Olympic lifting also isn't specific for people who need jumping, but
they do it. It spares joint trauma while providing very effective
stimulus, so it's a good tool.

Cross training isn't specific, so
trying to simulate race conditions in cross training exercises is not effective.


How do you know?


Definition of cross training is that it's not specific. You can try as hard as you
like to make weight lifting like cycling, but cycling will still be more like cycling
than weights.


How do you know, that "trying to simulate race conditions in cross
training exercises is not effective"?

[...]
Here I thought more about psychology than physiology. Lifting heavy


OK, but if you're looking at it from this perspective, it's much better to use
the chosen activity. Much easier to visualize *riding* towards the finish line
if you're actually on a bike (and preferably riding towards some object) !


Probable. So what?

Just because it is so hard to lift after an exhausting ride one should
probably do it. That is if there is a similarity between a lift and a
sprint, but we know already that there is one. Lifting is simply safer.


The safety argument is a pretty non-compelling one. There are ways one can impose
"lab conditions" on a bike ride without losing specificity (e.g. ride on a bike
trainer or a spinning bike)


Honestly, I doubt that it would work equally well. Lack of direct
feedback, or something, but I can't visualize that somebody would be
able to motivate himself equally hard without having a bar to move or
someone to chase.

When you lift while tired every set feels very hard, but when you add
some weight, you still somehow manage to lift it. Sometimes you even
beat your PR on a bad day. It happens. Very strange, but it probably
happened to everybody here at least once.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #46  
Old March 4th 08, 10:55 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
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Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
plus I was talking about
weight training on light riding days. If you weight train after the ride you
will not have the energy you need to train effectively enough to even be
wasting your time in the gym. It is always better to lift before cardio.

We train with weights to build muscles.


Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.


Of course you do.


Of course you don't. Lighter is faster. You don't want to build mass.

Weight training for endurance athletes is largely about neuromuscular efficiency.

Why do you think that purely
catabolic cardio is the best follower of an anabolic workout? It seems
to defy the very purpose of weight training.


If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.


Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?


It also allows you to run or cycle more efficiently.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #47  
Old March 4th 08, 11:12 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
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Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):

No, it's quite different (you're not on a bike!).

So you won't fall over and injure yourself, even if you really give
everything you got.


The point is, it's non-specific.


Olympic lifting also isn't specific for people who need jumping, but
they do it. It spares joint trauma while providing very effective
stimulus, so it's a good tool.


I'm not saying that cross training isn't a worthwhile tool, I'm saying
that it's non-specific. Serious jumpers don't try to simulate their competition
event when they perform olympic lifts. They don't try to emulate long-jumping
and high-jumping movements when they perform those lifts (imagine trying to
long jump with a bar over your head!) They just do standard OL movements.

Definition of cross training is that it's not specific. You can try as hard as you
like to make weight lifting like cycling, but cycling will still be more like cycling
than weights.


How do you know, that "trying to simulate race conditions in cross
training exercises is not effective"?


Well, it's non-specific by definition. You're using completely different muscular
activation patterns (which kills specificity in that department), and you're doing
an activity that doesn't bear any resemblance to a race (so you don't gain any
benefits as far as visualization is concerned)

Additionally, physiological state (e.g. oxygen uptake, blood lactate levels, and
local muscular fatigue) are completely different.

So it's not a good simulation of a race. The physiological variables of interest
don't match up.

Here I thought more about psychology than physiology. Lifting heavy


OK, but if you're looking at it from this perspective, it's much better to use
the chosen activity. Much easier to visualize *riding* towards the finish line
if you're actually on a bike (and preferably riding towards some object) !


Probable. So what?


So you're argument is about psychology, and I'm pointing out that from a psychological
cross training doesn't really cut it. You need to be in a situation resembling race
conditions (either an actual race, or at least an interval workout with well matched
training partners, and a competitive mindset)

The safety argument is a pretty non-compelling one. There are ways one can impose
"lab conditions" on a bike ride without losing specificity (e.g. ride on a bike
trainer or a spinning bike)


Honestly, I doubt that it would work equally well. Lack of direct
feedback, or something, but I can't visualize that somebody would be
able to motivate himself equally hard without having a bar to move or
someone to chase.


Bike trainers can provide direct feedback (power output, etc). That works well
enough for most workouts. It's considerably more specific than lifting weights.

When you lift while tired every set feels very hard, but when you add
some weight, you still somehow manage to lift it. Sometimes you even
beat your PR on a bad day.


You don't need to go to the weights room to get an intense workout where you feel
like you're working hard.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #48  
Old March 4th 08, 11:46 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Homer Simpson[_2_]
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Posts: 166
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?


"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...
Dnia 2008-03-04 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...

Not really. If you count in all the preparation to a final sprint, it
would take at least several minutes. I used to watch bicycle racing as
a kid every year and I remember that much.


Yes the jockeying for just the right spot in the sprint would take some
time. You didn't want to be right in front because then everyone would
draft
you then do their sprints as you began to wear down, you didn't want to
be
too far back because when they took off you wouldn't jump fast enough to
catch them. But the sprint itself would only take seconds. About the same
amount of time it takes to do a set on weights....


So what's wrong with progressing with weights up to your target and
giving an all out effort? It seems similar enough.


I don't understand this question. You will have to help me out on this one.


plus I was talking about
weight training on light riding days. If you weight train after the ride
you
will not have the energy you need to train effectively enough to even be
wasting your time in the gym. It is always better to lift before cardio.


We train with weights to build muscles. Why do you think that purely
catabolic cardio is the best follower of an anabolic workout? It seems
to defy the very purpose of weight training.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R


You defy the purpose of weight lifting far more by doing cardio before you
train so that you aren't fresh. And again you do the weight training before
a "light" ride not before a training ride. The cardio is not as catabolic
that way.


  #49  
Old March 5th 08, 01:08 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
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Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
Definition of cross training is that it's not specific. You can try as hard as you
like to make weight lifting like cycling, but cycling will still be more like cycling
than weights.


How do you know, that "trying to simulate race conditions in cross
training exercises is not effective"?


Well, it's non-specific by definition. You're using completely different muscular
activation patterns (which kills specificity in that department), and you're doing
an activity that doesn't bear any resemblance to a race (so you don't gain any
benefits as far as visualization is concerned)


Sure.

Additionally, physiological state (e.g. oxygen uptake, blood lactate levels, and
local muscular fatigue) are completely different.


They don't need to be. They usually are quite different, but it's
possible to simulate race conditions to some extent. You say that it
will not work. So how do you know it will not result in improved
performance?

So it's not a good simulation of a race. The physiological variables of interest
don't match up.


It's called simulation for a reason. Only race "simulates" race
conditions with perfect accuracy.

[...]
Honestly, I doubt that it would work equally well. Lack of direct
feedback, or something, but I can't visualize that somebody would be
able to motivate himself equally hard without having a bar to move or
someone to chase.


Bike trainers can provide direct feedback (power output, etc). That works well
enough for most workouts. It's considerably more specific than lifting weights.


It may be more specific, but I didn't doubt that. I doubted that it
would work any better, which isn't the same thing.

When you lift while tired every set feels very hard, but when you add
some weight, you still somehow manage to lift it. Sometimes you even
beat your PR on a bad day.


You don't need to go to the weights room to get an intense workout where you feel
like you're working hard.


Perceived effort doesn't work here. You feel that you work hard even
with relatively light weights, but you still can do much more. You need
objective and direct feedback to make it happen.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #50  
Old March 5th 08, 01:14 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
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Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
We train with weights to build muscles.

Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.


Of course you do.


Of course you don't. Lighter is faster. You don't want to build mass.


Of course you want to build mass. Or, to put it differently, you want
to have as much needed muscles as possible at as low body weight as
possible. Usually it means stimulating muscle mass gains.

Weight training for endurance athletes is largely about neuromuscular efficiency.


This sounds as much a nonsense as anything I read today, but maybe I'm
the stupid one here, so could you elaborate?

If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.


Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?


It also allows you to run or cycle more efficiently.


Is somebody able to even hint at proving that thing (I'm not sure it
deserves to be called a hypothesis)?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 




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