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recovery question



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 9th 08, 09:19 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
number6[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default recovery question

Hello all,

So everyone knows size and strength gains are made in recovery but what are
peoples recommendations for rest periods on terms of how the muscles feel as
opposed to a period of time.

I.e. I'm wondering if it's fine to work the same muscle group and indeed
same muscle if it still aches from a previous workout as mine now do after
changing my regime.

Would the gains be greater if i waited the whole week it currently takes for
a complete recovery or would they be minor compared to leaving it only a few
days where i'm guesing they're largely recovered but still 'aching'.

Thoughts please.


  #2  
Old October 9th 08, 04:08 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
BR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default recovery question

number6 wrote:
Hello all,

So everyone knows size and strength gains are made in recovery but what are
peoples recommendations for rest periods on terms of how the muscles feel as
opposed to a period of time.

I.e. I'm wondering if it's fine to work the same muscle group and indeed
same muscle if it still aches from a previous workout as mine now do after
changing my regime.

Would the gains be greater if i waited the whole week it currently takes for
a complete recovery or would they be minor compared to leaving it only a few
days where i'm guesing they're largely recovered but still 'aching'.

Thoughts please.



A minimum of 48 hours. Beyond that, watch for signs of overtraining.
The easiest way to monitor is to take your resting pulse when you wake
up in the morning, before you get out of bed. If it varies more than
ten percent from your nominal value, you are overtrained. You need to
either reduce the intensity and/or number of sets in your workout, or go
for three or four days between workouts.

As far as soreness, if you stretch after your workout, that should
minimize delayed onset muscle soreness. It's never been an issue for me
unless I'm starting to train again after a long layoff, then I'll have
some soreness for a week. I also have noticed that my resting pulse is
going up under these conditions, so I only train two times a week until
my recovery capacity is back up again.
  #3  
Old October 9th 08, 04:41 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Jim Janney[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 477
Default recovery question

"number6" writes:

Hello all,

So everyone knows size and strength gains are made in recovery but what are
peoples recommendations for rest periods on terms of how the muscles feel as
opposed to a period of time.

I.e. I'm wondering if it's fine to work the same muscle group and indeed
same muscle if it still aches from a previous workout as mine now do after
changing my regime.

Would the gains be greater if i waited the whole week it currently takes for
a complete recovery or would they be minor compared to leaving it only a few
days where i'm guesing they're largely recovered but still 'aching'.

Thoughts please.


I think the key phrase here is "after changing my regime." Depending
on how bad it is, I might go with a lighter workout for a bit, but I
wouldn't change my schedule on that account. Your body should adapt
to the new regime within a few weeks.

--
Jim Janney
  #4  
Old October 10th 08, 09:52 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Tom Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,436
Default recovery question

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, number6 wrote:

I.e. I'm wondering if it's fine to work the same muscle group and indeed
same muscle if it still aches from a previous workout as mine now do
after changing my regime.


Yes. If it's an ache after changing your workout, my guess is it's Delayed
Onset Muscle Soreness, DOMS; is it a kind of sharp pain, worse when you
move? That's DOMS. It doesn't mean you should stop exercising, and in fact
exercising will help relieve it.

tom

--
Understanding the universe is the final purpose, as far as I'm
concerned. -- Ian York
  #5  
Old October 11th 08, 03:42 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Steve Freides
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,029
Default recovery question

"number6" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

So everyone knows size and strength gains are made in recovery but
what are
peoples recommendations for rest periods on terms of how the muscles
feel as
opposed to a period of time.


Be careful with assuming strength gains are made in recovery - they're
not. Size gains, yes, but strength is a skill that you practice, and to
gain strength without gaining size, one often trains daily or even
several times a day in such a manner that "recovery" really isn't
necessary - short sets, long rests between sets.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

I.e. I'm wondering if it's fine to work the same muscle group and
indeed
same muscle if it still aches from a previous workout as mine now do
after
changing my regime.

Would the gains be greater if i waited the whole week it currently
takes for
a complete recovery or would they be minor compared to leaving it only
a few
days where i'm guesing they're largely recovered but still 'aching'.

Thoughts please.




  #6  
Old October 15th 08, 10:25 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Keiron \(number6\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default recovery question

Many thanks all. In general what i hoped to hear.

I'm curious about what you're saying with strength gains tho Steve.
Strength is my ultimate aim at the moment and my workouts have been replaced
by fewer reps per set and ample rest between sets for this purpose but what
about the frequency of training?? Will strength improve with exercising
everyday?? Won't this result in over training?


"number6" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

So everyone knows size and strength gains are made in recovery but what

are
peoples recommendations for rest periods on terms of how the muscles feel

as
opposed to a period of time.

I.e. I'm wondering if it's fine to work the same muscle group and indeed
same muscle if it still aches from a previous workout as mine now do after
changing my regime.

Would the gains be greater if i waited the whole week it currently takes

for
a complete recovery or would they be minor compared to leaving it only a

few
days where i'm guesing they're largely recovered but still 'aching'.

Thoughts please.




  #7  
Old October 15th 08, 01:26 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Steve Freides
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,029
Default recovery question

"Keiron (number6)" wrote in message
...
Many thanks all. In general what i hoped to hear.

I'm curious about what you're saying with strength gains tho Steve.
Strength is my ultimate aim at the moment and my workouts have been
replaced
by fewer reps per set and ample rest between sets for this purpose but
what
about the frequency of training?? Will strength improve with
exercising
everyday?? Won't this result in over training?


There are many ways to get stronger. Most people, for reasons I
honestly don't understand, choose to work towards a combination of
improved skill and increased muscle size. If your approach is pure
strength, then the motto is to train as heavy as possible, as often as
possible, while remaining as fresh as possible. People go so far as
Pavel's "Grease The Groove" approach, performing anywhere from 5 to 20
sets of an exercise per day, spread throughout the day. Obviously not
all exercises lend themselves to this, and you can't do it effectively
for more than one or two movements but it does work.

Strength treated purely as a skill resembles practicing your tennis
serve or, for that matter, playing the violin. For either, you would
strive to get as much practice time in as possible, but you'd always
stop before your form deteriorated even a little. People look at me and
just assume I"m a runner because that's how I'm built, but I have a 365
lb. deadlift to my credit in the 148 lb. weight class and 50-54 year old
age group at an AAU meet a couple of years ago. Not an earth-shaking
number for a powerlifter, but not bad for a middle-aged, skinny guy with
a bad back.

If this subject is really of interest, you ought to head over to the
DragonDoor forum where it gets discussed regularly -
http://forum.dragondoor.com or any of the articles on my site have links
there as well. Pavel's got two books on this subjec and they're both
great reads, IMHO:

http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People, one of his first
books and focused on the deadlift. It goes into detail about a
5-days-a-week deadlifting program.

http://www.kbnj.com/nw.htm - Naked Warrior, focused on bodyweight
exercises, specifically one-legged squat and one-armed pushup. NW goes
into detail about the GTG program.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


  #8  
Old October 15th 08, 05:53 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Keiron \(number6\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default recovery question


"Steve Freides" wrote in message
...
"Keiron (number6)" wrote in message
...
Many thanks all. In general what i hoped to hear.

I'm curious about what you're saying with strength gains tho Steve.
Strength is my ultimate aim at the moment and my workouts have been
replaced
by fewer reps per set and ample rest between sets for this purpose but
what
about the frequency of training?? Will strength improve with
exercising
everyday?? Won't this result in over training?


There are many ways to get stronger. Most people, for reasons I
honestly don't understand, choose to work towards a combination of
improved skill and increased muscle size. If your approach is pure
strength, then the motto is to train as heavy as possible, as often as
possible, while remaining as fresh as possible. People go so far as
Pavel's "Grease The Groove" approach, performing anywhere from 5 to 20
sets of an exercise per day, spread throughout the day. Obviously not
all exercises lend themselves to this, and you can't do it effectively
for more than one or two movements but it does work.

Strength treated purely as a skill resembles practicing your tennis
serve or, for that matter, playing the violin. For either, you would
strive to get as much practice time in as possible, but you'd always
stop before your form deteriorated even a little. People look at me and
just assume I"m a runner because that's how I'm built, but I have a 365
lb. deadlift to my credit in the 148 lb. weight class and 50-54 year old
age group at an AAU meet a couple of years ago. Not an earth-shaking
number for a powerlifter, but not bad for a middle-aged, skinny guy with
a bad back.

If this subject is really of interest, you ought to head over to the
DragonDoor forum where it gets discussed regularly -
http://forum.dragondoor.com or any of the articles on my site have links
there as well. Pavel's got two books on this subjec and they're both
great reads, IMHO:

http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People, one of his first
books and focused on the deadlift. It goes into detail about a
5-days-a-week deadlifting program.

http://www.kbnj.com/nw.htm - Naked Warrior, focused on bodyweight
exercises, specifically one-legged squat and one-armed pushup. NW goes
into detail about the GTG program.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


Many thanks Steve. I've just had a good scan of the forum and articles on
the site. Some interesting reading, i'll doubtless register for full effect.

Thanks for the tip.

cheers.

Keiron


  #9  
Old November 8th 08, 03:03 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Chris Malcolm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 321
Default recovery question

Steve Freides wrote:
"Keiron (number6)" wrote in message
...
Many thanks all. In general what i hoped to hear.

I'm curious about what you're saying with strength gains tho Steve.
Strength is my ultimate aim at the moment and my workouts have been
replaced
by fewer reps per set and ample rest between sets for this purpose but
what
about the frequency of training?? Will strength improve with
exercising
everyday?? Won't this result in over training?


There are many ways to get stronger. Most people, for reasons I
honestly don't understand, choose to work towards a combination of
improved skill and increased muscle size. If your approach is pure
strength, then the motto is to train as heavy as possible, as often as
possible, while remaining as fresh as possible. People go so far as
Pavel's "Grease The Groove" approach, performing anywhere from 5 to 20
sets of an exercise per day, spread throughout the day. Obviously not
all exercises lend themselves to this, and you can't do it effectively
for more than one or two movements but it does work.


Being 65 with aging joints I'm not interested in adding any weight,
just in getting stronger. I'll accept some muscle mass increase if it
goes along with losing at least the same weight of fat.

I was annoyed to discover that almost all the training research is
focussed on increasing muscle mass, and there's not much about muscles
as old as mine. So I decided to experiment on my own muscles and
develop a mathematical model of their response to training. One of the
things I've discovered is that the fastest route to increased strength
for me is several reps spread throughout a day of one single
repetition to failure, every day for about a week, and then a day's
rest. The rate of strength increase is so fast the rest of my old body
(such as tendons) simply can't take it and I injure myself.

What seems to work well when starting with a new unexercised muscle is
to do one rep to failure once a week, and once that's stopped
producing muscle soreness that lasts longer than a day to increase
frequency until I'm doing two a day spaced several hours apart. The
widest spacing is important because fatigue reduces the reps you can
manage and that reduces the strengthening effect.

An interesting feature of my model is that it predicts that if I
followed the usual kind of muscle mass increasing exercise regimes
recommended in the gyms, that I'd get quite rapid gains for a month or
few (depending on intensity of the workouts), followed by a few months
of so of static or gradually falling performance, followed by a much
slower but continuous rate of increase. The reason seems to be that
the first gains are due to neuromuscular training of existing
muscle. When this nears the ceiling of existing muscle mass there is a
pause or drop in performance until the much slower growth of muscle
mass catches up and moves the ceiling further out. The subsequent
slower rate of growth is due to a parallel development of new muscle
and the training of it.

The model predicts that doing reps to complete failure in the
strengthening range more than once a day every day, and widely spaced,
avoids that knee in the strength growth curve. But I haven't yet
collected enough data in the muscle growth regions yet to be sure of
these conclusions in that area. And since I'm aiming at increasing
strength with minimal increase in muscle mass perhaps I never will :-)

--
Chris Malcolm



  #10  
Old November 8th 08, 01:06 PM posted to misc.fitness.weights
Steve Freides
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,029
Default recovery question

"Chris Malcolm" wrote in message
...
Steve Freides wrote:
"Keiron (number6)" wrote in message
...
Many thanks all. In general what i hoped to hear.

I'm curious about what you're saying with strength gains tho Steve.
Strength is my ultimate aim at the moment and my workouts have been
replaced
by fewer reps per set and ample rest between sets for this purpose
but
what
about the frequency of training?? Will strength improve with
exercising
everyday?? Won't this result in over training?


There are many ways to get stronger. Most people, for reasons I
honestly don't understand, choose to work towards a combination of
improved skill and increased muscle size. If your approach is pure
strength, then the motto is to train as heavy as possible, as often
as
possible, while remaining as fresh as possible. People go so far as
Pavel's "Grease The Groove" approach, performing anywhere from 5 to
20
sets of an exercise per day, spread throughout the day. Obviously
not
all exercises lend themselves to this, and you can't do it
effectively
for more than one or two movements but it does work.


Being 65 with aging joints I'm not interested in adding any weight,
just in getting stronger. I'll accept some muscle mass increase if it
goes along with losing at least the same weight of fat.

I was annoyed to discover that almost all the training research is
focussed on increasing muscle mass, and there's not much about muscles
as old as mine. So I decided to experiment on my own muscles and
develop a mathematical model of their response to training. One of the
things I've discovered is that the fastest route to increased strength
for me is several reps spread throughout a day of one single
repetition to failure, every day for about a week, and then a day's
rest. The rate of strength increase is so fast the rest of my old body
(such as tendons) simply can't take it and I injure myself.

What seems to work well when starting with a new unexercised muscle is
to do one rep to failure once a week, and once that's stopped
producing muscle soreness that lasts longer than a day to increase
frequency until I'm doing two a day spaced several hours apart. The
widest spacing is important because fatigue reduces the reps you can
manage and that reduces the strengthening effect.

An interesting feature of my model is that it predicts that if I
followed the usual kind of muscle mass increasing exercise regimes
recommended in the gyms, that I'd get quite rapid gains for a month or
few (depending on intensity of the workouts), followed by a few months
of so of static or gradually falling performance, followed by a much
slower but continuous rate of increase. The reason seems to be that
the first gains are due to neuromuscular training of existing
muscle. When this nears the ceiling of existing muscle mass there is a
pause or drop in performance until the much slower growth of muscle
mass catches up and moves the ceiling further out. The subsequent
slower rate of growth is due to a parallel development of new muscle
and the training of it.

The model predicts that doing reps to complete failure in the
strengthening range more than once a day every day, and widely spaced,
avoids that knee in the strength growth curve. But I haven't yet
collected enough data in the muscle growth regions yet to be sure of
these conclusions in that area. And since I'm aiming at increasing
strength with minimal increase in muscle mass perhaps I never will :-)

--
Chris Malcolm


Chris, there are legions of lifters who don't add muscle mass, me among
them, and there are proven methods to get stronger without hypertrophy.
The classic text on this subject, IMHO, is Pavel's "Power To The
People!", http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm . I'm still the same weight I was
when I started lifting, which is still small at 153 lbs. I don't train
to failure - the model you give seems unnecessarily restrictive to me.
There are a lot of ways to do this.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


 




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