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How long before aerobics "kicks in"??



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 4th 03, 09:44 PM
Goran Tomaš
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Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:56:23 +1000, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
I do not pretend to be an athlete. I return to my central point - I find
this no harder on zero carbs than I did on full carbs. The OPs question "how


I think that this is highly individual. Some people respond to no
carbs diet, some feel like crap on it and can't do nothing... There's
no diet that fits all. I can't imagine an ectomorph type of person
sustaining long on zero carbs diet. OTOH, with other types of
body/metablosim/genetics that might work just fine.

Suggesting a personal experience is OK, but claiming this is the only
way and the right way to go and attacking other with different
experience is a failure at start. Whatever 'side' you're on...


Regards,
Goran Tomas
  #12  
Old July 4th 03, 10:25 PM
wringerman
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Posts: n/a
Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

"Bob Garrison" wrote in message ...
"Peter Webb" wrote in message
u...
No it's not credible.

Treadmills are "famous" for overestimating calories burned!


FYI, I get this by alternating between 12-13 kms/hr running

Unless you are *very* overweight running at 12-13 kms/hr burns approx.

800
kCals/hr NOT 1100.

SNIP

Not according to http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/Calories.html
On my bodyweight (80 kgs) running at 13 kph burns 1109 kCal per hour.


This calculator is more realistic.
http://liftforlife.homestead.com/fit...lculators.html



More of Bob's horse manure. You Crapculator doesn't even take speed
into account.

Bob, go to your room. If you don't I am going to Email your Mom and
Pop and they are going to whip your little butt when they get go on
parole this weekend. ....
  #13  
Old July 6th 03, 12:08 PM
Van Bagnol
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Posts: n/a
Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

In article ,
"Peter Webb" wrote:

SNIP

To burn more calories, you have to be more active than that. So, you
increase your activity by exercise -- the more intense and/or longer the
duration, the more calories burned.

But when you exercise more intensely, not all of the energy production
will be able to come from fatty acids that your fat stores provide. A
certain percentage of muscle tissue will face shortfalls of the oxygen
it needs, so glucose from the body's glycogen stores is necessary to
"keep the flame going", so to speak, and provide energy to muscle tissue
momentarily starved for oxygen. You can get by with existing body
glycogen for a little while, but you will eventually have to replenish
it -- with carbs.


Absolute crap. Why can't "all of your energy come from fatty acids that your
fat stores provide"? More to the point, people on zero carb diets obviously
can and do manage to exercise intensely.


Not _absolute_ crap, but perhaps I oversimplified it for you. Energy
(ATP) production is _always_ a mixture of several different processes,
some of which cannot come from fat sources.

Not all ATP production is aerobic. A certain percentage is anaerobically
derived even if you are exercising at an "aerobic" level: a modest 230w
power output can still produce ~2 mmol/L of blood lactate -- perhaps not
enough to feel a "burn" but present nonetheless -- indicating anaerobic
glycolytic activity. Furthermore, energy from fatty acids is _only_
aerobic. It has to enter the Krebs/NADH2 cycle directly as acetyl co-A
to produce ATP via oxidative phosphorylation, which requires oxygen.

As exercise intensity increases, and without enough oxygen and enzymatic
machinery for oxidation, the rest of the energy demands must be met more
by the anaerobic processes such as phosphocreatine (which is depleted so
rapidly it really isn't considered in duration exercise) and, of course,
glycolysis. Glycolysis requires glucose, no surprise.

That's why the "percentage of fat" utilization for energy declines with
extreme intensity exercise. It's not that you burn less fat (in fact
it's the opposite), you burn more -- a lot more -- carbohydrate. It
takes 18 times as many glucose molecules 'burned' anaerobically to
provide the same energy as one glucose molecule burned aerobically.

More to the point, I'm not saying people on zero-carb diets can't
exercise intensely. I _am_ saying that they have to temporarily deplete
muscle glycogen to do it, which will have to be replenished before it
runs out. That's why (no surprise either) people bonk.

BTW, glycogen can also be replenished by metabolising protein through
gluconeogenesis. People on zero carb diets do not have zero glucose or zero
glycogen levels.


True, I'd forgotten to mention that certain (C3) amino acids can be
converted to pyruvic acid which is interconvertible to glucose, but I
was addressing the OP's question about 'needing carbs to burn fat' by
explaining that the answer's not quite that simple. I was showing the
manner in which the statement is true, not seeking circumstances where
the statement is false.

Certainly, the most immediate way to replenish carbs is to eat carbs.
And it is possible for the body to synthesize carbs from protein, but
nonetheless, gluconeogenesis is about turning protein into carb, which
was still my point.

The OP was contemplating a low carb diet, but worried that this would make
him stop his exercise regime. It most definitely would not. Low carb diets
are doubly effective if combined with plenty of aerobic exercise.


Actually the OP was already on a low carb diet, and was wondering when
he would start seeing improvements from exercise because he gained 8 lb
since hitting the gym. After you suggested an even _lower_ carb diet, he
was uncertain of your advice because of a differing opinion by another
poster.

Van

--
Van Bagnol / v a n at wco dot com / c r l at bagnol dot com
....enjoys - Theatre / Windsurfing / Skydiving / Mountain Biking
....feels - "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng paniginip"
....thinks - "An Error is Not a Mistake ... Unless You Refuse to Correct It"
  #14  
Old July 6th 03, 01:28 PM
Peter Webb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

SNIP

More to the point, I'm not saying people on zero-carb diets can't
exercise intensely. I _am_ saying that they have to temporarily deplete
muscle glycogen to do it, which will have to be replenished before it
runs out. That's why (no surprise either) people bonk.


Agreed. Also true if you are NOT on a low carb diet.


Actually the OP was already on a low carb diet, and was wondering when
he would start seeing improvements from exercise because he gained 8 lb
since hitting the gym. After you suggested an even _lower_ carb diet, he
was uncertain of your advice because of a differing opinion by another
poster.

Van


The OP was eating about 100 grams of carbs a day.

It is my belief (based upon my own personal experience) that ketogenic diets
work by simply suppressing appetite. You are not as hungry if you don't eat
carbs. This effect only happens for me on less than about 30-50 grams/day of
carbs. (For me, ketosis kicks in after a few days of 20 grams/day of carbs,
so the hunger suppression does not appear to be directly related to
ketosis).

Unfortunately, if I eat more than 50 grams/day of carbs, there is no
discernable decrease in appetite, and I am simply a guy who goes to the gym
and eats lots of bacon and eggs. With 100 grams/day of carbs and no hunger
suppression, a high protein high fat Atkins style diet could be very
fattening. As I said to the original poster, a diet of 100 grams/day of
carbs limits your food choices without neccessarily providing any weight
control benefit. I simply advised him to try 0 grams/day of carbs instead of
100 to see what happened.

And if you are still reading, dear OP, also take a sugar free fibre
supplement (eg one of the Metamuscil products that is sweetened with
Aspartame) and vitamin pills. My first few weeks on Atkins disproved the old
saying "If you don't eat, you don't ****, and if you don't ****, you die".
On no carbs, you don't ****, but you don't die either ...




  #15  
Old July 7th 03, 12:11 PM
MartinB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

Yes - OP still here!
And many thanks for all your advice, albeit a bit varied!
I cut my carbs to zero for all of last week - to try and kick start some
weight loss - but still nothing.
Appetite suppression is great though! I'll just have to cope with the keto
breath.....
I'm now back up to approx 20g carbs a day (Atkins style) and will give it a
few weeks to see what gives.
I *am* still tired however, and it feels harder work in the gym these last
few weeks.
My body fat doesn't seem to be reducing either.
I have a hand held cheap meter.
My wife's BF is decreasing nicely - but boo hoo - I've stuck at approx 34%
for the last 2 months.
... not that I think you can trust these things - just thought it may show me
some variations.

I think I may need to cut back the Aerobics a little and up the resistance.
And I've just given up dairy for a week - I think that may be stalling me!
I'm seeing my trainer for my 2 monthly review on Wednesday - let's see what
she says!
(Although she does teach at a gym that says "you must eat carbs to burn
fat!)

And - my body temp seems to have fallen to average 36.6F - could that be a
"lack of carbs" type thing??

Thanks again folks
MartinB






"Peter Webb" wrote in message
u...
SNIP

More to the point, I'm not saying people on zero-carb diets can't
exercise intensely. I _am_ saying that they have to temporarily deplete
muscle glycogen to do it, which will have to be replenished before it
runs out. That's why (no surprise either) people bonk.


Agreed. Also true if you are NOT on a low carb diet.


Actually the OP was already on a low carb diet, and was wondering when
he would start seeing improvements from exercise because he gained 8 lb
since hitting the gym. After you suggested an even _lower_ carb diet, he
was uncertain of your advice because of a differing opinion by another
poster.

Van


The OP was eating about 100 grams of carbs a day.

It is my belief (based upon my own personal experience) that ketogenic

diets
work by simply suppressing appetite. You are not as hungry if you don't

eat
carbs. This effect only happens for me on less than about 30-50 grams/day

of
carbs. (For me, ketosis kicks in after a few days of 20 grams/day of

carbs,
so the hunger suppression does not appear to be directly related to
ketosis).

Unfortunately, if I eat more than 50 grams/day of carbs, there is no
discernable decrease in appetite, and I am simply a guy who goes to the

gym
and eats lots of bacon and eggs. With 100 grams/day of carbs and no hunger
suppression, a high protein high fat Atkins style diet could be very
fattening. As I said to the original poster, a diet of 100 grams/day of
carbs limits your food choices without neccessarily providing any weight
control benefit. I simply advised him to try 0 grams/day of carbs instead

of
100 to see what happened.

And if you are still reading, dear OP, also take a sugar free fibre
supplement (eg one of the Metamuscil products that is sweetened with
Aspartame) and vitamin pills. My first few weeks on Atkins disproved the

old
saying "If you don't eat, you don't ****, and if you don't ****, you die".
On no carbs, you don't ****, but you don't die either ...






  #16  
Old July 7th 03, 02:36 PM
Peter Webb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

Well done.

Dunno about the reduction in body temperature - weirdo weird.

If you lack energy, make sure you are getting enough salt and pottasium in
your diet. Its not unusual for people on keto diets to run low on these
(particularly if they exercise *intensely*), and one of the symptoms is lack
of energy.

Keep at it, it really is worth trying.

Good luck


Peter Webb

"MartinB" wrote in message
...
Yes - OP still here!
And many thanks for all your advice, albeit a bit varied!
I cut my carbs to zero for all of last week - to try and kick start some
weight loss - but still nothing.
Appetite suppression is great though! I'll just have to cope with the keto
breath.....
I'm now back up to approx 20g carbs a day (Atkins style) and will give it

a
few weeks to see what gives.
I *am* still tired however, and it feels harder work in the gym these last
few weeks.
My body fat doesn't seem to be reducing either.
I have a hand held cheap meter.
My wife's BF is decreasing nicely - but boo hoo - I've stuck at approx 34%
for the last 2 months.
.. not that I think you can trust these things - just thought it may show

me
some variations.

I think I may need to cut back the Aerobics a little and up the

resistance.
And I've just given up dairy for a week - I think that may be stalling me!
I'm seeing my trainer for my 2 monthly review on Wednesday - let's see

what
she says!
(Although she does teach at a gym that says "you must eat carbs to burn
fat!)

And - my body temp seems to have fallen to average 36.6F - could that be a
"lack of carbs" type thing??

Thanks again folks
MartinB






"Peter Webb" wrote in message
u...
SNIP

More to the point, I'm not saying people on zero-carb diets can't
exercise intensely. I _am_ saying that they have to temporarily

deplete
muscle glycogen to do it, which will have to be replenished before it
runs out. That's why (no surprise either) people bonk.


Agreed. Also true if you are NOT on a low carb diet.


Actually the OP was already on a low carb diet, and was wondering when
he would start seeing improvements from exercise because he gained 8

lb
since hitting the gym. After you suggested an even _lower_ carb diet,

he
was uncertain of your advice because of a differing opinion by another
poster.

Van


The OP was eating about 100 grams of carbs a day.

It is my belief (based upon my own personal experience) that ketogenic

diets
work by simply suppressing appetite. You are not as hungry if you don't

eat
carbs. This effect only happens for me on less than about 30-50

grams/day
of
carbs. (For me, ketosis kicks in after a few days of 20 grams/day of

carbs,
so the hunger suppression does not appear to be directly related to
ketosis).

Unfortunately, if I eat more than 50 grams/day of carbs, there is no
discernable decrease in appetite, and I am simply a guy who goes to the

gym
and eats lots of bacon and eggs. With 100 grams/day of carbs and no

hunger
suppression, a high protein high fat Atkins style diet could be very
fattening. As I said to the original poster, a diet of 100 grams/day of
carbs limits your food choices without neccessarily providing any weight
control benefit. I simply advised him to try 0 grams/day of carbs

instead
of
100 to see what happened.

And if you are still reading, dear OP, also take a sugar free fibre
supplement (eg one of the Metamuscil products that is sweetened with
Aspartame) and vitamin pills. My first few weeks on Atkins disproved the

old
saying "If you don't eat, you don't ****, and if you don't ****, you

die".
On no carbs, you don't ****, but you don't die either ...








  #17  
Old July 7th 03, 09:41 PM
Goran Tomaš
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:11:40 +0100, "MartinB"
wrote:
Appetite suppression is great though! I'll just have to cope with the keto
breath.....


Interesting... Whenever I cut carbs and eat mostly protein I find
myself hungry after two hours (if at all that long). On the other hand
I can sustain longer on balanced carbs/protein/fats diet. For example,
I ate lasagnas yesterday (after a long time), not much of it, and I
didn't feel hungry for 4+ hours.

Although my goal is not to sustain as long as I can without eating (as
I don't have problem with loosing mass but with gaining) it's what I
noticed. Protein makes me hungry... Include carbs and I feel much
fuller.

I guess it all depends on your body type, genetics and metabolism.

On another note, I don't think the point is to suppress apatite and
last long without eating. I believe in burning more calories (through
both cardio and weight training), revving up your metabolism and
eating small and frequent meals...


Regards,
Goran Tomas
Pozdrav,
Goran

Listen now! -- http://free-zg.hinet.hr/GTomas/PuzzlingRadio.html
  #18  
Old July 10th 03, 03:25 AM
Van Bagnol
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How long before aerobics "kicks in"??

In article ,
"Peter Webb" wrote:

SNIP

More to the point, I'm not saying people on zero-carb diets can't
exercise intensely. I _am_ saying that they have to temporarily deplete
muscle glycogen to do it, which will have to be replenished before it
runs out. That's why (no surprise either) people bonk.


Agreed. Also true if you are NOT on a low carb diet.


True.

It is my belief (based upon my own personal experience) that ketogenic diets
work by simply suppressing appetite.


Now that's interesting. The normal hypothalamic response is for caloric
intake to rise/fall in directly with energy expenditure so that body
weight remains constant, i.e, the "set point" that dieters (both
overweight people trying to lose and underweight people trying to gain)
are always battling against. (Below a certain activity level, the
mechanism fails: food intake does not decline any further, causing
sedentary weight gain -- I presume that when activity increases again,
the activity/intake mechanism resumes but is now "set" at a higher
weight.) A high-protein/low-carb diet would tend to force the body into
"starvation" mode where the liver deaminates protein to provide glucose
for brain function. I wonder if the diet affects the hypothalamus to
suppress apetite, or if the amino acid / glucose gradient affects
alimentary receptors so that protein is "overpriced", i.e., tricking the
body to think it's ingested more calories than it actually did.

You are not as hungry if you don't eat carbs. This effect only
happens for me on less than about 30-50 grams/day


This is also interesting. The normal glucostatic response is for low
glucose levels to promote appetite and high levels to suppress it.

(For me, ketosis kicks in after a few days of 20 grams/day of carbs,
so the hunger suppression does not appear to be directly related to
ketosis).


It would seem that ketosis and appetite suppression are separate
consequences stemming from high-protein/low-carb intake. I don't know
much about Atkins-style diets, though, so I'll need to look into it
further.

Unfortunately, if I eat more than 50 grams/day of carbs, there is no
discernable decrease in appetite, and I am simply a guy who goes to the gym
and eats lots of bacon and eggs. With 100 grams/day of carbs and no hunger
suppression, a high protein high fat Atkins style diet could be very
fattening. As I said to the original poster, a diet of 100 grams/day of
carbs limits your food choices without neccessarily providing any weight
control benefit. I simply advised him to try 0 grams/day of carbs instead of
100 to see what happened.


So with an Atkins-style diet, it's high-protein high-fat, but you don't
feel like eating it anyway? How ironic.

(I'm not poking fun, I'm just surprised. I'm somewhat blessed with
having little trouble with weight, so weight control woes are foreign to
me.)

My first few weeks on Atkins disproved the old saying "If you don't
eat, you don't ****, and if you don't ****, you die". On no carbs,
you don't ****, but you don't die either ...


No ****, really? :-)

Van

--
Van Bagnol / v a n at wco dot com / c r l at bagnol dot com
....enjoys - Theatre / Windsurfing / Skydiving / Mountain Biking
....feels - "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng paniginip"
....thinks - "An Error is Not a Mistake ... Unless You Refuse to Correct It"
 




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