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A TI God Sees the Light



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 15th 04, 02:03 AM
Donal Fagan
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:16:25 GMT, "Donald Graft"
wrote:

The TI books seem clearly aiming at
popularizing swimming,


No, they are aimed at generating an income for
Laughlin.


Do you prefer socialism to capitalism?

I'm just going to say there are things you don't
know about and would be appalled to know.


You've hinted about deep, dark secrets before, a
long time ago. Either you're afraid of committing
libel, or you really have nothing to say.

The same applies to Fagan, IMHO.


Best money I ever spent. Without TI, I would have
drifted out of swimming a long time ago. I
haven't swum for months, but I know that I'll have
no trouble picking up again once this house
project is finished.


Donal Fagan AIA

(Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
  #12  
Old October 15th 04, 02:05 AM
Donal Fagan
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:53:56 GMT, "Donald Graft"
wrote:

Poor, poor Donal. Just can't take the heat.


I'm not afraid of new ideas.


Donal Fagan AIA

(Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
  #13  
Old October 15th 04, 05:02 AM
Larry Weisenthal
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I'm not afraid of new ideas.

loping, Miller Torque, heads up freestyle, short strokes better for weak
kickers, the lumbar arch in maintaining balance, the role of the kick in
preventing momentum loss between entry and catch, duck wings vs. turkey wings,
recapitulating the Neer test when reaching forward while "side skating," etc.

Evaluating TI on r.s.s. is difficult because of

the intense hostility from Donald and Larry, who
'pile on' to anything that questions TI.

See prior paragraph. There is a difference between an ad hominem attack and
presenting new ideas (of which Fagan professes not to be afraid) which happen
to conflict with someone else's view of the world. When I present an
alternative view of the world which does conflict with TI, this is considered
to be "intense hostility." When Fagan attacks my own alternative views, this
is not "intense hostility," but rather, ...what? Scholarly discourse? O.K.
I'll accept that, but let's give everyone who wants to argue specifics the same
benefit of the doubt, shouldn't we?

- Larry W
  #14  
Old October 15th 04, 06:28 AM
Martin W. Smith
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Donal Fagan wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:16:25 GMT, "Donald Graft"
wrote:

The TI books seem clearly aiming at
popularizing swimming,


No, they are aimed at generating an income for
Laughlin.


Do you prefer socialism to capitalism?


What do you mean by socialism? You probably don't mean socialism.


  #15  
Old October 15th 04, 11:59 AM
ukswimmer
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et (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message ...
I'm not afraid of new ideas.


loping, Miller Torque, heads up freestyle, short strokes better for weak
kickers, the lumbar arch in maintaining balance, the role of the kick in
preventing momentum loss between entry and catch, duck wings vs. turkey wings,
recapitulating the Neer test when reaching forward while "side skating," etc.

Evaluating TI on r.s.s. is difficult because of

the intense hostility from Donald and Larry, who
'pile on' to anything that questions TI.

See prior paragraph. There is a difference between an ad hominem attack and
presenting new ideas (of which Fagan professes not to be afraid) which happen
to conflict with someone else's view of the world. When I present an
alternative view of the world which does conflict with TI, this is considered
to be "intense hostility." When Fagan attacks my own alternative views, this
is not "intense hostility," but rather, ...what? Scholarly discourse? O.K.
I'll accept that, but let's give everyone who wants to argue specifics the same
benefit of the doubt, shouldn't we?

- Larry W


I have a lot of trouble understanding venom I see both for and against
TI here on these boards. I have trained with both TI accredited
coaches and non TI coaches here in the UK. The attitude of the coaches
here is that TI is a constantly evolving technique and as such will
take what it learns from its coaches and adapt. New drills are
introduced, old drills discarded and thinking and concepts evolved and
developed. Many of attacks I see are based upon a book and drill
sequence published over 10 years ago and treats TI as if it were set
in tablets of stone at that point.

Many of the TI swim pointers are negotiatable according to the swimmer
with only a few truly set in stone. Much of what is recommended &
reinforced while drilling (like the degree of roll, hand entry point,
etc) is purposeful exaggeration designed to introduce elements into a
full stroke but not to be fully applied within the full stroke. I
don’t know any coaches that would expect to see full body
rotation at racing speeds but repetition of rotation in the drills
introduces a greater degree of rotation at speed. I will agree that I
see too many students actually drilling rather than swimming or take
too long in a recovery and hence glide rather than maintain momentum
with a true FQS stroke (where in one hand is just short of leaving the
quadrant as the second hand enters it but rather swim with a prolonged
glide and both hands in the first "Octal" ?
Perhaps Donalds TI friend is the same.

The attitude of the TI coaches here is much like that of Glen Mills,
methodology having more to do more with ranges than rules. The drill
sets are just clever ways of teaching the core concepts of balance,
drag reduction and relaxation in a structured manner and of building
new body memories without invoking the old ones. I see much that I
can agreed upon and much in common from both adherents and critics of
TI. I see many disagreements where terminology rather than concept
seems to have created an issue and a small number on both sides who
are bloody minded to an nth degree. Perhaps TI in the UK is less
“Evangelical ” or and its opponents less
“fundamental” but both sides willing to acknowledge that
no-one has ALL the good ideas but many people have much to contribute
and offer and we all keep on learning … TI and non TI alike.
  #17  
Old October 15th 04, 01:21 PM
Martin W. Smith
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Michael wrote:

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:50:53 GMT, "Donald Graft" wrote:

"nelson" wrote in message m...
Could you please summarize all that you have against TI? I read the
books and I do remember some little inconsistencies, but I am still
very appreciative of all they taught me. It seemed, paradoxically,
more consistent and useful to read than any other book on swimming I
read.

Why does it deserve a crusade against?


Please read the articles in the Miscellaneous section at my web site:
http://swimfastest.net/. There are a number of articles that address the
technical points. I will be adding more as soon (crusaders never rest!).
Bottom line: it's all based on physical absurdities, cute sloganeering,
and disingenuous claims about data and how elite swimmers swim.

That's why I created SwimFastest Videos, to refute the silly claims of TI.

It's a crusade for me because I believe TI is ruining swimmers, and
because I think Laughlin's arrogant "one-way'ism" is a horrible precedent
for others to follow.

I want to apologize for my insulting characterization of Glenn Mills in
a recent posting here (although I do stand by the article,
and I've offered him an opportunity to respond). Glenn is
actually a very gracious person (surely exceeding me in that regard) and his mind
is now open since departing TI. I sincerely regret the slight in my recent
posting and hope he, and you all, will forgive me. I also wish him great success in
his current endeavors in the swimming business.

Don


So Donald, for recreational swimmers like myself who neither have the
aspirations or talents to become another Phelps or a Thorpe, but just
want to be able to improve and swim well for the great exercise it is,
wouldn't TI be a good option?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole concern regarding the "TI vs.
non TI" debate seems to be geared towards the competitive swimming
element in this group.


I've never known any swimmers that are TI zealots or devotees or even
any that have been to a TI course. Or maybe they have just not
announced their TI views. So my only impression is what I read here,
and my impression is this: I suspect that new, mature swimmers will
use TI as an excuse for not working hard. At the end of the day, if
your stroke is reasonable, the only way to get fast is to work hard.
The only way to get into shape is to work hard. If you are hoping TI
will make you faster, then you should already be a powerful, in shape
swimmer, or you are doing what we in software development call
"premature optimization."

  #20  
Old October 15th 04, 05:00 PM
4precious
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(ukswimmer) wrote in message om...
et (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message ...
I'm not afraid of new ideas.


loping, Miller Torque, heads up freestyle, short strokes better for weak
kickers, the lumbar arch in maintaining balance, the role of the kick in
preventing momentum loss between entry and catch, duck wings vs. turkey wings,
recapitulating the Neer test when reaching forward while "side skating," etc.

Evaluating TI on r.s.s. is difficult because of

the intense hostility from Donald and Larry, who
'pile on' to anything that questions TI.

See prior paragraph. There is a difference between an ad hominem attack and
presenting new ideas (of which Fagan professes not to be afraid) which happen
to conflict with someone else's view of the world. When I present an
alternative view of the world which does conflict with TI, this is considered
to be "intense hostility." When Fagan attacks my own alternative views, this
is not "intense hostility," but rather, ...what? Scholarly discourse? O.K.
I'll accept that, but let's give everyone who wants to argue specifics the same
benefit of the doubt, shouldn't we?

- Larry W


I have a lot of trouble understanding venom I see both for and against
TI here on these boards. I have trained with both TI accredited
coaches and non TI coaches here in the UK. The attitude of the coaches
here is that TI is a constantly evolving technique and as such will
take what it learns from its coaches and adapt. New drills are
introduced, old drills discarded and thinking and concepts evolved and
developed. Many of attacks I see are based upon a book and drill
sequence published over 10 years ago and treats TI as if it were set
in tablets of stone at that point.


Taking Terry's TI concepts too far can be very damaging. Let me
relate a short story.

My friend's daughter is an age-group swimmer in the local club. She's
11 years old. She was in the bottom third of her competitive
grouping, so hanging in there. Well, the Coach's had a kind of
"technique test" where they evaluated all the girls. My friend's
daughter didn't pass muster. Before telling me what they found, I
said "let me guess, bunch of stuff about head position, not looking at
the bottom of the pool, maybe some unequal roll issues". He said "How
did you know?". Well, because it's sheep following the false prophet
and they all spout the same thing, that's how.

Anyways, she gets pulled out of her competitive group. She's crushed
and cries for a week. She was making the time standards, mind you.
She gets put in the group that does a bunch of "floating and
drilling", as we disparagingly call it in our Master's group.

So we're now six months down the line and this guy's daughter is
screwed. In his opinion her technique has not improved in any
noticeable way. And that group of girls that she used to swim with
and be friends with - it's a Tony Soprano "Forgeet 'bout it". They've
now got six months of hard training in them while she was learning to
kick across the pool gently in a side lying balance position. She'll
never catch them again. That's what TI did for her!!

Here's an analogy. Swimming is a little bit like pitching a baseball.
(It is after all playoff time in the Major Leagues). Pitchers, even
at the elite level, do it in very different ways. From how they wind
back, to how far they drop their bodies when pushing off the mound, to
whether they throw over the top, or 3/4, or side arm.

TI is kind of the equivalent of this - a pitcher comes up through the
minor leagues, striking out everybody and getting wins. So they bring
him up to the majors: do they say hey, we love the fact that you're
getting outs, but we don't think the way you're pitching is correct so
we're going to change it? Hell no. They give him the ball and say
throw bullets, kid, and if you get men out in this league, you're
going to be a millionaire.

Translation: if a swimmer is making the time, then I say let them
swim. Most TI proponents don't know much about swimming, anyways. Or
more accurately, they simply parrot what other people say about how to
swim.

Eric
 




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