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A TI God Sees the Light



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 15th 04, 09:30 PM
Larry Weisenthal
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loping,

a result of one-sided breathing.


Not so. Virtually everyone breathes to one side. Only certain, really good
swimmers tend to lope. The higher up you go, the more of them you see. It is
a distinct style of swimming, not simply an artifact of breathing.

Miller Torque,


I've brought up kicking to counteract leg-sinking torque any number of times,

both here and on the TI Board.

You don't need to kick to counteract leg sinking torque. You just need good
body position. Plenty of good swimmers with good body position hardly kick at
all.

heads up freestyle,
short strokes better for weak kickers


not proven in my opinion.


What's not proven? That some of the greatest swimmers in history tilt their
heads forward and even lift them up out of the water? That, at the elite
level, the non-kickers/very weak kickers (e.g. like almost all adult swimmers
who were not former competitive swimmers) all have short/high turnover strokes?
I've given many examples to prove the above. You have yet to prove that Janet
Evans didn't lift her head clear out of the water with every stroke or show me
a single example of a world class non-kicker/very weak kicker who swims with a
long/slow stroke.

the lumbar arch in maintaining balance,


I find it painful and tiring to do so. I don't

want to support my local chiropractor.

If you have a weak back, then one of the great benefits you can get is to
strengthen it. It will help prevent dryland problems and give you a better
land posture. I'll post more of Bill Boomer's suggested lumbar spine
strengthening exercises, when I find the time. If you have back pathology,
then I've always said that this method may not be for you. But it's the chief
way that elite swimmers maintain good horizontal balance. They do NOT maintain
this balance by pressing the buoy and avoiding "even a one inch" head raise.

the role of the kick in preventing momentum loss
between entry and catch,


Well experiments prove that the kick's separate

*propulsion* isn't a factor; I believe the kick is complementary.

There have been no experiments to date published to address the view held by me
(and Dr. Maglischo) that the kick reduces loss of momentum during the dead
periods in the stroke (which nicely explains why all the long gliding-type
elite swimmers have great kicks on the side where they are extending forward
and gliding)

duck wings vs. turkey wings,


I think this is probably true.


Thanks!

recapitulating the Neer test when reaching forward while "side skating,"

etc.

Hard to avoid pronation in any elite strokes.


Yes, but easy to avoid in adult-type swimming drills.

With all our disagreements, I have no interest in carrying on any sort of

crusade. I've got a life.

You were the one who dragged me into this particular thread. I was just
minding my own business, challenging the leaders of my own profession about
things which I consider to be important (I've been quoted in the Wall Street
Journal about these matters 3 times in the past month) and debating politics on
another Usenet group.

Going back to both.

But I've never stopped swimming since 1981, no matter what. Don't know how in
the world you can stay out of the water, as you are now doing. My condolences.

- Larry W
  #22  
Old October 15th 04, 10:02 PM
Larry Weisenthal
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So we're now six months down the line and this guy's daughter is
screwed. In his opinion her technique has not improved in any
noticeable way. And that group of girls that she used to swim with
and be friends with - it's a Tony Soprano "Forgeet 'bout it". They've
now got six months of hard training in them while she was learning to
kick across the pool gently in a side lying balance position. She'll
never catch them again. That's what TI did for her!!

Eric's anecdote really does get to the heart of the problem. In the past, I
wrote that what I'll call the "TI mentality" is ruining swimming. It is
homogenizing the sport, to the detriment of the sport and to the detriment of
individual swimmers. It's a lowest common denominator approach. It may well
be that getting people to swim with their heads down, in a more or less
bilaterally symmetrical fashion, and to strive to swim with a long, gliding,
FQS type style may produce improvement for the average swimmer...thus the
performance of the group as a whole may improve. I think that's why age group
clubs who teach their swimmers all to swim this way do tend to enjoy greater
success at the early age group level. But what is lost is the individual
swimmer, like the swimmer in Eric's tale or Janet Evans or Chris Thompson or
Jason Lezak or David Davies. The first three were developed in the USA in an
earlier era, where they were permitted to develop their idiosyncratic styles
(extreme loping and head lifting). Davies, of course, developed in the UK. I
can't imagine that any 10 year old kid today who swam like Janet swam at age 10
would be permitted to keep swimming that way. And, since I believe that the
styles most seen at the elite international level are not the styles taught and
fostered by "TI mentality," then I think that there will come a time in the
future where the US is less competitive in men's freestyle and women's distance
freestyle at the international level.

At the adult fitness/triathlete level, I think it is key to match swimming
style to kicking ability. People with inflexible ankles and non-existent to
very weak kicks are just not well served FQS-style, long stroke gliding. And
triathletes can have many advantages by learning to swim with a style in which
forward head tilting and even slight head lifting become a natural part of the
stroke cycle.

I'm in favor of matching the technique to the swimmer and to the event being
swum, as opposed to promoting a one-size fits all approach.

If I was going to go into competition with TI (which I'm certainly NOT), I'd
promote an "individualized" approach to my weekend workshops. One of the first
things I'd do is to measure ankle flexibilty and aptitude for kicking. Then
I'd look at the aquatic bodyline in the water. I'd do some simple
orthopedic-type history/physical exam testing, particularly as involves the
shoulder girdle. I'd discuss the swimmer's goals for the sport. And I'd build
a program for each swimmer based on all of these factors.

- Larry W




  #23  
Old October 15th 04, 10:45 PM
4precious
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Donal Fagan wrote in message . ..

Best money I ever spent. Without TI, I would have
drifted out of swimming a long time ago. I
haven't swum for months, but I know that I'll have
no trouble picking up again once this house
project is finished.



I believe TI is an excuse for swimmers to embrace slow, easy swimming.
And that's the most positive effect that TI has had on the swim
community.

Let's face it, swimming is a pretty "amp'd up", aggressive sport, with
young practioners who are trying to get better going through not one,
but often two gruelling work outs in one day. And most of us middle
aged contributors to this group know, it's pretty tough to keep that
going for your whole life.

What's that old bumper sticker, "It's Okay Not to Drink".

Under the TI logo it should read: "It's Okay to Swim Slowly".

And I say that a litte tongue in cheek, but I'm serious for the most
part. Getting into great swimming shape is hard work. And staying
there is hard work. It takes many pool workouts per week. Much
easier to do some drilling, practice a little whole stroke swimming,
then remember that you're not supposed to swim when you're tired and
reinforce bad technique, and therefore get out of the pool and call it
a day. Great for us middle aged types - never going to produce a
champion at the lower level.

Eric
  #24  
Old October 15th 04, 10:47 PM
4precious
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"Donald Graft" wrote in message news:%[email protected]_s02...
"ukswimmer" wrote in message m...
et (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message ...
[...] New drills are
introduced, old drills discarded and thinking and concepts evolved and
developed. Many of attacks I see are based upon a book and drill
sequence published over 10 years ago and treats TI as if it were set
in tablets of stone at that point.


The original book is still being sold and Terry Laughlin says of the difference between
it and the new ones only that the new ones are better aligned to the current
drill progression. In fact, here's what Terry Laughlin himself says about the old book
in the TI FAQ at his website:

"It is far better than any non-TI swimming book as a conceptual guide
to smart swimming. You might think of it as a comprehensive introduction
to Total Immersion, most valuable for those who are are learning about TI
for the first time."

The one area where TI does seem to have discarded a concept is the
idea of pressing your buoy. Unfortunately they've replaced it with two
new concepts that are equally untenable (hiding your head and
the down-sloping forward extension). I'm currently half way through
an article about that and you'll find it at my web site soon.

Don


As we know, Terry lurks on this user group. No doubt anything we come
up with here which has value will eventually find its way into his
material. Certainly Dr. Weisenthal has suggested not one, but many
worthwhile ideas which, if borne out, are truly paradigm shifting in
terms of their impact on the sport.

Eric
  #25  
Old October 15th 04, 10:50 PM
Donal Fagan
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On 15 Oct 2004 19:30:00 GMT, et
(Larry Weisenthal) wrote:

(Loping) is a distinct style of swimming, not simply an
artifact of breathing.


Then show me a loping backstroker.

You don't need to kick to counteract leg sinking
torque. You just need good body position. Plenty
of good swimmers with good body position hardly
kick at all.


Now *you* sound like a TI god. I think sprinters
kick hard largely because of the torque they
create with their strokes.

There have been no experiments to date published
to address the view held by me (and Dr. Maglischo)
that the kick reduces loss of momentum during the
dead periods in the stroke ...


There have been several, one expressly for r.s.s.

Hard to avoid pronation in any elite strokes.


Yes, but easy to avoid in adult-type swimming drills.


But few books teach fitness strokes that are safe
for people with bad elbows. Make that *no* books.
It is grossly unfair to apply that standard to one
out of all the instructional resources.

But I've never stopped swimming since 1981, no
matter what. Don't know how in the world you can
stay out of the water, as you are now doing. My
condolences.


Well, I always thought that I'd have plenty of
time for exercise if I didn't have to go to an
office, but it hasn't yet worked out that way.

I've been trying to start my own design-build
business, and there is little extra money for
things like YMCA memberships. I was swimming in
the lake after work, but it is too cold for that
now. Actually I swam after physical work and
before bookkeeping, marketing and design.

I actually credit swimming with keeping me fit
enough to work in the field after twenty-five
years behind a draughting board or computer.
Construction work makes you strong in a few areas,
(so I'll have no problem trying biceps freestyle)
but does little good aerobically.


And again, I'm not afraid of new ideas, but they
have to pass my global test. :-)


Donal Fagan AIA

(Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
  #27  
Old October 15th 04, 11:11 PM
Larry Weisenthal
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Then show me a loping backstroker.

Tom Dolan.

There have been no experiments to date published

to address the view held by me (and Dr. Maglischo)
that the kick reduces loss of momentum during the
dead periods in the stroke ...


There have been several, one expressly for r.s.s.


Not so. All experiments to date have dealt the ability of kicking alone to
achieve/maintain momentum. We are talking about the ability of a single kick
impulse to maintain momentum during the 0.1 sec interval between entry and
catch. The only way to investigate this is to perform formal velocity/time
curve testing in the presence and absence of kicking. To my knowledge, this
has yet to be done.

n.b.

Thanks goodness that you also approve of global tests. Otherwise, we'd really
have a fight on our hands.

- Larry W

  #28  
Old October 15th 04, 11:39 PM
Ross Bogue
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In article ,
et (Larry Weisenthal) wrote:

I'm not afraid of new ideas.



I hate to jump in when you, Don, and Donal are having such fun by
yourselves, but may I?

My current style (as you know, I've tried several) is probably more
TI-like than anything else, although I doubt that it's exactly what
they're teaching. 14-16 s/l, two-beat kick, lots of hip rotation,
several of the buzzwords are there. I described it a few weeks ago in
another thread. When it's going well, it even feels like "side skating".

30 years ago, I was a mediocre high school swimmer with a fast, short
stroke. 24 s/l was normal for me. I wasn't the fastest swimmer on the
team (I have small hands, narrow feet, short arms, and wide hips - not
the ideal swimmer's body), but they put me in the distance events and I
actually won a few races.

Today, I'm getting older. I simply can't swing my arms that quickly any
more. When I try, I puff like crazy and maybe I can do 100yds in 1:15.

When I use my current style, I don't puff nearly so hard, but do
1:10-12. Still not elite, but better.


loping,


No real opinion. It seems to work for some people. I tried it a while
back, and couldn't seem to get it working.


Miller Torque,


A necessity of Physics. We mostly agree on that.


heads up freestyle,


Again, I tried. I never could get that to work well. But it seems to
work ok for some folks.

I can see that a heads-up lope like Evans' would be very useful for
open-water swimmers. Not much open water around here, though.


short strokes better for weak kickers,


Not that I'm anywhere near being elite, but I seem to be doing better
with long strokes and a two-beat kick. Granted, it's more of a
whole-body kick than just a leg kick.


the lumbar arch in maintaining balance,


A strong lumbar arch seems to help me also. I think we agree here.


the role of the kick in
preventing momentum loss between entry and catch,


Again, I think we mostly agree. My two-beat timing doesn't match
Maglischo's, though.


duck wings vs. turkey wings,


Physiology isn't my field. I don't see anyone arguing with you here,
though.


recapitulating the Neer test when reaching forward while "side skating," etc.


I never seem to have shoulder problems with a long forward reach. I do
have a shoulder (my right shoulder) that's prone to problems. It does
hurt if I catch too early, without a proper descent first (that's
another reason I gave up on the fast stroke). It hurts if I try to swim
backstroke. It also hurts if I sleep on my right side. But it doesn't
hurt with my current style.



Ross
  #29  
Old October 16th 04, 01:19 AM
Steve Curtis
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I'm in favor of matching the technique
to the swimmer and to the event being
swum, as opposed to promoting a
one-size fits all approach.


I have to agree with this. Most of everything that I've read regarding
pro-TI (especially here in rss) seems to suggest that the "essence" of
becoming a better swimmer is to adopt a heretofore, unproven, "one-size
fits all" approach without consideration of some of the variants in
stroke techniques that can be tailored to the individual swimmer based
on his or her strengths and weaknesses. I would think that good coaching
would recognize the individualities in stroke technique as much as that
of the swimmers themselves.

Steve Curtis

  #30  
Old October 16th 04, 02:38 AM
diablo
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"Larry Weisenthal" wrote in message
...

We are talking about the ability of a single kick
impulse to maintain momentum during the 0.1 sec interval between entry and
catch. The only way to investigate this is to perform formal

velocity/time
curve testing in the presence and absence of kicking. To my knowledge,

this
has yet to be done.


i'm currently in the process of developing a water-bourne ergometer. using a
force transducer hooked to a tethered swimmer, i can produce power curves.
now, i'm using this for measuring peak power / time to peak power at various
stages of the season, testing different styles of speed sets and dryland
sets for their effectiveness in an aim to individualize the season 100% for
my swimmers.

whats this got to do with this string? well, not much, but going back to
this argument on the propulsive nature of the kick, i'm willing to conduct
another mini-study for the RSS audience.

the output provides with with not only the data i'm looking for, but will
provide a continuous power curve sampling within your 0.1 second frame and
beyond. therefore, my suggestion is we trial a few swimmers pulling and full
stroke against my device. i'd be looking for two things: 1 the mean force
output with pull vs full stroke, and then the range of oscillation. if kick
really does provide a propulsive effort in the way Larry purports, the range
would be lower than it would with pull only. i'm pretty sure that the
resolution of my load cell will be able to cover this. any changes to this
rough design?

Steve


 




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