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Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 5th 08, 01:24 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
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Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-04 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...

Yes the jockeying for just the right spot in the sprint would take some
time. You didn't want to be right in front because then everyone would
draft
you then do their sprints as you began to wear down, you didn't want to
be
too far back because when they took off you wouldn't jump fast enough to
catch them. But the sprint itself would only take seconds. About the same
amount of time it takes to do a set on weights....


So what's wrong with progressing with weights up to your target and
giving an all out effort? It seems similar enough.


I don't understand this question. You will have to help me out on this one.


First you run a long race, then you increase energy expenditure for
several minutes, then you sprint all out to the finish line. Which
looks similar to having an easy(ish) ride, then going to the weight room
and doing an upward progression of weights. You start light and add
pounds until you reach failure. You do all that while already tired by
a ride. If you train yourself to "deliver" even if you are tired you
should be able to push yourself harder at the final stages of a race.

Leave less in a tank, so to speak.

We train with weights to build muscles. Why do you think that purely
catabolic cardio is the best follower of an anabolic workout? It seems
to defy the very purpose of weight training.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R


You defy the purpose of weight lifting far more by doing cardio before you
train so that you aren't fresh.


Possible (and I actually believe it to be true). But now we see that
there is a compromise here, not one and only answer.

And again you do the weight training before
a "light" ride not before a training ride. The cardio is not as catabolic
that way.


Sure. But it wouldn't harm your gym performance in a big way too.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #52  
Old March 5th 08, 02:27 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
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Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-05, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
Definition of cross training is that it's not specific. You can try as hard as you
like to make weight lifting like cycling, but cycling will still be more like cycling
than weights.

How do you know, that "trying to simulate race conditions in cross
training exercises is not effective"?


Well, it's non-specific by definition. You're using completely different muscular
activation patterns (which kills specificity in that department), and you're doing
an activity that doesn't bear any resemblance to a race (so you don't gain any
benefits as far as visualization is concerned)


Sure.

Additionally, physiological state (e.g. oxygen uptake, blood lactate levels, and
local muscular fatigue) are completely different.


They don't need to be. They usually are quite different, but it's
possible to simulate race conditions to some extent. You say that it


But your example doesn't simulate race conditions to any extent. A steady paced
aerobic effort is a closer match to race conditions on nearly all the key
physiological variables (oxygen uptake, blood lactate level, body temperature,
muscle activation patterns).

will not work. So how do you know it will not result in improved
performance?


I can't prove that it won't. But the burden of proof is not upon me. It's enough to
argue that you're proposing something that is highly non-specific and then trying to
argue that it is highly specific.

So it's not a good simulation of a race. The physiological variables of interest
don't match up.


It's called simulation for a reason. Only race "simulates" race
conditions with perfect accuracy.


To be a good simulation, it needs to simulate race conditions with better
accuracy than obvious alternatives (e.g. actually performing the race
activity).

Bike trainers can provide direct feedback (power output, etc). That works well
enough for most workouts. It's considerably more specific than lifting weights.


It may be more specific, but I didn't doubt that. I doubted that it
would work any better, which isn't the same thing.


I think you need to provide evidence (or at least an argument) that specificity
will not be observed in this case. If the latter, don't expect me to buy it (-;


When you lift while tired every set feels very hard, but when you add
some weight, you still somehow manage to lift it. Sometimes you even
beat your PR on a bad day.


You don't need to go to the weights room to get an intense workout where you feel
like you're working hard.


Perceived effort doesn't work here. You feel that you work hard even
with relatively light weights, but you still can do much more. You need
objective and direct feedback to make it happen.


The ideal feedback is a well matched training partner who is performing the workout
alongside you. But failing that, an ergometer still provides objective and direct
feedback.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #53  
Old March 5th 08, 02:43 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
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Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-05, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
We train with weights to build muscles.

Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.

Of course you do.


Of course you don't. Lighter is faster. You don't want to build mass.


Of course you want to build mass. Or, to put it differently, you want
to have as much needed muscles as possible at as low body weight as
possible. Usually it means stimulating muscle mass gains.


Endurance runners use their hamstrings, quads and calves, yet it is not in their
interests to make these muscles as large as possible.

Weight training for endurance athletes is largely about neuromuscular efficiency.


This sounds as much a nonsense as anything I read today, but maybe I'm
the stupid one here, so could you elaborate?


Take a look at this:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/5/1527

and this:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...e2=tf_ipsecsha

The idea is that it's possible to make gains from strength training without
hypertrophy.

If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.

Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?


It also allows you to run or cycle more efficiently.


Is somebody able to even hint at proving that thing (I'm not sure it
deserves to be called a hypothesis)?


Pace for an all-out endurance run consists of two factors -- how fast you can move
oxygen around (VO2), and how much distance you can cover per unit oxygen (running
economy). Strength training has been shown to improve the latter in trained endurance
athletes, but not the former.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #54  
Old March 5th 08, 02:53 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Homer Simpson[_2_]
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Posts: 166
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?


"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
We train with weights to build muscles.

Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you
probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.

Of course you do.


Of course you don't. Lighter is faster. You don't want to build mass.


Of course you want to build mass. Or, to put it differently, you want
to have as much needed muscles as possible at as low body weight as
possible. Usually it means stimulating muscle mass gains.

Weight training for endurance athletes is largely about neuromuscular
efficiency.


This sounds as much a nonsense as anything I read today, but maybe I'm
the stupid one here, so could you elaborate?

If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.

Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?


It also allows you to run or cycle more efficiently.


Is somebody able to even hint at proving that thing (I'm not sure it
deserves to be called a hypothesis)?


Its not hypothesis..it is fact.
Here are some websites where you can read up on it.
http://www.shapeyou.com/weights_first.html
http://www.familiesonlinemagazine.co...loss/32830.php
http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/Foru...ML/000734.html
http://www.fit1on1.com/fithome/article2.html
http://www.wholefitness.com/basicworkout.html
http://www.delimaworkout.com/FAQ/index.html
When I typed in Cardio before weights I came up with this
http://www.bodybuilding-tips.net/s20/t7811.html


  #55  
Old March 5th 08, 03:06 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Homer Simpson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?


"Elflord" wrote in message
...
On 2008-03-05, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
We train with weights to build muscles.

Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you
probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.

Of course you do.

Of course you don't. Lighter is faster. You don't want to build mass.


Of course you want to build mass. Or, to put it differently, you want
to have as much needed muscles as possible at as low body weight as
possible. Usually it means stimulating muscle mass gains.


Endurance runners use their hamstrings, quads and calves, yet it is not in
their
interests to make these muscles as large as possible.

Weight training for endurance athletes is largely about neuromuscular
efficiency.


This sounds as much a nonsense as anything I read today, but maybe I'm
the stupid one here, so could you elaborate?


Take a look at this:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/5/1527

and this:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...e2=tf_ipsecsha

The idea is that it's possible to make gains from strength training
without
hypertrophy.

If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.

Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?

It also allows you to run or cycle more efficiently.


Is somebody able to even hint at proving that thing (I'm not sure it
deserves to be called a hypothesis)?


Pace for an all-out endurance run consists of two factors -- how fast you
can move
oxygen around (VO2), and how much distance you can cover per unit oxygen
(running
economy). Strength training has been shown to improve the latter in
trained endurance
athletes, but not the former.

Cheers,
--


This was some interesting stuff. I am not surprised that there were
measurable results for the cyclists but inconclusive for the runners. The
cyclist is working against more resistance pushing the pedals than the
runner is by simply carrying his body. Though I would think the added
strength would make a measurable difference in a sprinter.


  #56  
Old March 5th 08, 03:06 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-05 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-05, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):

Additionally, physiological state (e.g. oxygen uptake, blood lactate levels, and
local muscular fatigue) are completely different.


They don't need to be. They usually are quite different, but it's
possible to simulate race conditions to some extent. You say that it


But your example doesn't simulate race conditions to any extent. A steady paced
aerobic effort is a closer match to race conditions on nearly all the key
physiological variables (oxygen uptake, blood lactate level, body temperature,
muscle activation patterns).


If you are doing time trials. Rarely the same people win normal races
and time trials.

will not work. So how do you know it will not result in improved
performance?


I can't prove that it won't. But the burden of proof is not upon me. It's enough to
argue that you're proposing something that is highly non-specific and then trying to
argue that it is highly specific.


I'm not saying it's highly specific anywhere. I'm saying, that it
resembles the race condition enough to possibly work. You say that it's
not worth an effort, so how do you know again?

IOW, I don't need to prove that I'm not sure. You are sure, so at least
give a hint why that stuff shouldn't work.

So it's not a good simulation of a race. The physiological variables of interest
don't match up.


It's called simulation for a reason. Only race "simulates" race
conditions with perfect accuracy.


To be a good simulation, it needs to simulate race conditions with better
accuracy than obvious alternatives (e.g. actually performing the race
activity).


No! Good training strategy is the one which improves performance, not
the one which simulates better or what not.

But I accept this as an argument. According to you, this approach
shouldn't work, because at the end of a race people don't lift weights.
Is that true?

Bike trainers can provide direct feedback (power output, etc). That works well
enough for most workouts. It's considerably more specific than lifting weights.


It may be more specific, but I didn't doubt that. I doubted that it
would work any better, which isn't the same thing.


I think you need to provide evidence (or at least an argument) that specificity
will not be observed in this case. If the latter, don't expect me to buy it (-;


Damn, I'm not saying it's less specific. I simply doubt that it works
equally well. I doubt that people will push themselves as hard as you
do during weight training.

You don't need to go to the weights room to get an intense workout where you feel
like you're working hard.


Perceived effort doesn't work here. You feel that you work hard even
with relatively light weights, but you still can do much more. You need
objective and direct feedback to make it happen.


The ideal feedback is a well matched training partner who is performing the workout
alongside you.


People come and go, but 300lbs is always 300lbs. (I quote someone here,
but I mean that you can't judge progress against people. People vary,
numbers don't.)

But failing that, an ergometer still provides objective and direct
feedback.


Does this ergo thing give you a feeling of achievement? Does it
challenge you the way a bar is challenging you? Do you want to show it
who is the boss? If so, then you may be right.

Or I may be wrong. I don't know if this would work either, but it's a
testable hypotheses. What is yours?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #57  
Old March 5th 08, 03:09 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-05 Homer Simpson napisał(a):

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote in message
...
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-04, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
We train with weights to build muscles.

Who's "we" ? If you're a competitive cyclist or endurance athlete, you
probably
are not lifting weights to bulk up.

Of course you do.

Of course you don't. Lighter is faster. You don't want to build mass.


Of course you want to build mass. Or, to put it differently, you want
to have as much needed muscles as possible at as low body weight as
possible. Usually it means stimulating muscle mass gains.

Weight training for endurance athletes is largely about neuromuscular
efficiency.


This sounds as much a nonsense as anything I read today, but maybe I'm
the stupid one here, so could you elaborate?

If you're a bodybuilder, that may be so.

Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?

It also allows you to run or cycle more efficiently.


Is somebody able to even hint at proving that thing (I'm not sure it
deserves to be called a hypothesis)?


Its not hypothesis..it is fact.
Here are some websites where you can read up on it.
http://www.shapeyou.com/weights_first.html


You don't even know what I was asking about.

http://www.familiesonlinemagazine.co...loss/32830.php
http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/Foru...ML/000734.html
http://www.fit1on1.com/fithome/article2.html
http://www.wholefitness.com/basicworkout.html
http://www.delimaworkout.com/FAQ/index.html
When I typed in Cardio before weights I came up with this
http://www.bodybuilding-tips.net/s20/t7811.html


--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #58  
Old March 5th 08, 03:35 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-05 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-05, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
Dnia 2008-03-04 Elflord napisał(a):


Weight training for endurance athletes is largely about neuromuscular efficiency.


This sounds as much a nonsense as anything I read today, but maybe I'm
the stupid one here, so could you elaborate?


Take a look at this:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/5/1527


They don't know if running economy changed. They suspect it (which
seems crazy, actually).

and this:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...e2=tf_ipsecsha

The idea is that it's possible to make gains from strength training without
hypertrophy.


That's obvious, but the whole line of thought seems vary crazy to me.
It's like those supplements they sell, where they show that it is used
somewhere during building muscles, so if you take it you get bigger
muscles. Equally far fetched reasoning.

Otherwise you build pure strength, which allows you to lift a barbell
once?

It also allows you to run or cycle more efficiently.


Is somebody able to even hint at proving that thing (I'm not sure it
deserves to be called a hypothesis)?


Pace for an all-out endurance run consists of two factors -- how fast you can move
oxygen around (VO2), and how much distance you can cover per unit oxygen (running
economy). Strength training has been shown to improve the latter in trained endurance
athletes, but not the former.


I found this stuff.
http://www.hpc.otago.ac.nz/resources...ain-review.pdf

Does it summarize current knowledge well enough, or something new popped
up?

As for now, I simply can't believe it. Literally. But I may be wrong.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
  #59  
Old March 5th 08, 03:41 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Elflord
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,791
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

On 2008-03-05, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

But your example doesn't simulate race conditions to any extent. A steady paced
aerobic effort is a closer match to race conditions on nearly all the key
physiological variables (oxygen uptake, blood lactate level, body temperature,
muscle activation patterns).


If you are doing time trials. Rarely the same people win normal races
and time trials.


Time trial or not, it's still a closer match.

I can't prove that it won't. But the burden of proof is not upon me. It's enough to
argue that you're proposing something that is highly non-specific and then trying to
argue that it is highly specific.


I'm not saying it's highly specific anywhere. I'm saying, that it
resembles the race condition enough to possibly work. You say that it's


You haven't shown that it resembles the race condition. I've provided a substantial list
of phsyiological variables to argue that it does not resemble the race condition.

To be a good simulation, it needs to simulate race conditions with better
accuracy than obvious alternatives (e.g. actually performing the race
activity).


No! Good training strategy is the one which improves performance, not
the one which simulates better or what not.


Ok, but you need to have some grounds for arguing that weights after a ride does
more to improve performance than a reasonable control condition (for example, weights
at any other time of the day).

To suggest that it simulates the end of a race isn't very convincing.

But I accept this as an argument. According to you, this approach
shouldn't work, because at the end of a race people don't lift weights.
Is that true?


That is one reason. The other is that your aerobic system is working pretty hard
at the beginning of the end of the race, so when you do that burst, it's different
to doing it from a rested state -- you're already at 90% VO2 max, and now you have
to crank it up to 100%. With an aerobic workout, you are working at a lower intensity
than that. Glycogen depletion is only a very small part of your state at the
end of a race (and even then, that's only applicable in longer events) So it's
not just that the squats don't resemble the sprint, the stuff you do before the
squats in a typical aerobic endurance session (including a break before the
weights) does not get you to the state you're in before the finishing dash.

That's not to say that the set of squats won't do anything, it's that I don't see
how it's any more like a finishing sprint than a set of squats at any other
time of day.

I think you need to provide evidence (or at least an argument) that specificity
will not be observed in this case. If the latter, don't expect me to buy it (-;


Damn, I'm not saying it's less specific. I simply doubt that it works
equally well. I doubt that people will push themselves as hard as you
do during weight training.


"Push themselves" is somewhat subjective. On the objective measures that count as
far as a finishing sprint is concerned -- for example, peak VO2 or total energy
output, you will go higher pushing a bike ergometer than you will with a set of
squats.

The ideal feedback is a well matched training partner who is performing the workout
alongside you.


People come and go, but 300lbs is always 300lbs. (I quote someone here,
but I mean that you can't judge progress against people. People vary,
numbers don't.)


You can always time interval workouts, and this provides frequent feedback.
But how you stand up to your peers is a better measure of your readiness for the
next race. When you race, you race against people, not the clock.

But failing that, an ergometer still provides objective and direct
feedback.


Does this ergo thing give you a feeling of achievement? Does it


Yes.

challenge you the way a bar is challenging you? Do you want to show it
who is the boss? If so, then you may be right.

Or I may be wrong. I don't know if this would work either, but it's a
testable hypotheses. What is yours?


I'd predict that strength work would be more effective if done "fresh", but
that the advantage wouldn't be all that great.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
  #60  
Old March 5th 08, 05:16 AM posted to misc.fitness.weights,rec.running,misc.fitness.aerobic,alt.support.diet
Andrzej Rosa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,359
Default Does weight lifting or cardio exercises speed weight loss?

Dnia 2008-03-05 Elflord napisał(a):
On 2008-03-05, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

If you are doing time trials. Rarely the same people win normal races
and time trials.


Time trial or not, it's still a closer match.


So it's a mainstay of training. As expected.

I'm not saying it's highly specific anywhere. I'm saying, that it
resembles the race condition enough to possibly work. You say that it's


You haven't shown that it resembles the race condition. I've provided a substantial list
of phsyiological variables to argue that it does not resemble the race condition.


You mean that you've shown, that training weights first and then doing a
jog is much more specific? When it happened?

No! Good training strategy is the one which improves performance, not
the one which simulates better or what not.


Ok, but you need to have some grounds for arguing that weights after a ride does
more to improve performance than a reasonable control condition (for example, weights
at any other time of the day).


I didn't claim anything like it in the first place.

To suggest that it simulates the end of a race isn't very convincing.


But it looks similar, doesn't it?

[...]
Damn, I'm not saying it's less specific. I simply doubt that it works
equally well. I doubt that people will push themselves as hard as you
do during weight training.


"Push themselves" is somewhat subjective. On the objective measures that count as
far as a finishing sprint is concerned -- for example, peak VO2 or total energy
output, you will go higher pushing a bike ergometer than you will with a set of
squats.


Honestly, I doubt it. Squats are scary, riding a pushbike at the top
of your current ability isn't, for whatever reason. Excluding riding
downhill in the mountains, of course. ;-)

People come and go, but 300lbs is always 300lbs. (I quote someone here,
but I mean that you can't judge progress against people. People vary,
numbers don't.)


You can always time interval workouts, and this provides frequent feedback.


I'd agree with that.

But how you stand up to your peers is a better measure of your readiness for the
next race. When you race, you race against people, not the clock.


Still, my argument stands.

But failing that, an ergometer still provides objective and direct
feedback.


Does this ergo thing give you a feeling of achievement? Does it


Yes.

challenge you the way a bar is challenging you? Do you want to show it
who is the boss? If so, then you may be right.

Or I may be wrong. I don't know if this would work either, but it's a
testable hypotheses. What is yours?


I'd predict that strength work would be more effective if done "fresh", but
that the advantage wouldn't be all that great.


You mean, that people who train with weights before endurance session
would show measurably better performance in endurance sports then those
who train with weights after a jog?

Possible. But I strongly suspect, that it would be awfully hard to measure
any difference. Like in really hard. So in reality it matters very
little from the point of view of a person simply trying to get back in
shape, and all this discussion started within this context.

What matters within this context is showing up and doing something
regularly. Simple approaches work here better than complicated ones.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 




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