INVERSION TABLES COMPARISONS / EVALUATIONS?

"David Cohen" wrote in message
. net...

"David" wrote
"David Cohen" wrote
"David" wrote
"David Cohen" wrote
"David" wrote
"John M. Williams" wrote
"David" wrote:
wrote:
Greetings

I realize this is a weights group and hope this post may not
be
too

[......]


d
i
v
a
D


I know inverted crunches are safe - I'm saying you can't do them with
the
standard bed where you are clamped by your ankles.

No, you said "plus you can exercise in a safe way with legs bent". And
you
can...I do...clamped by the ankles.

With the Bioflex type
machine you can do them and also bent legged back extensions. MUCH
more
versatile.

Plus in my opinion, to sign your name this way indicates full
nversion -
because you seem to prefer the non effectual beds, suggest sign this
way

I never said anything of the sort. This may be an miscommunication
between
Unitedstatesofamericanish and Australianish. I have, as does John, I
believe, a non-motorized tilt table that allows any degree of
inversion:

d i v a D d d
i i
v v
a a
D D

And I do the crunches totally inverted, free hanging by my ankles.

(Not having had the benefit of 47 years experience as a paramedic, I
would
be at a disadvantage here) - I assume that you are speaking of the
inversion
table/bed that has been around for 25 years - (the ankle clamp type) -
I
know it would be technically possible to do crunches or even to hang in
the
fully inverted position - however this is not considered safe because
of
the constriction of circulation because all your body weight is on that
one
joint.

No such thang! Perfectly safe, relatively comfortable.

The ones sold here have a 'caution' in the instructions not to tilt
over 45 deg

Wuss Aussies. No wonder Steve Irwin wants to move to Las Vegas.

http://www.geocities.com/sammiesdad/inversion.jpg

David

Ha ha! your jpeg proves now beyond any doubt what I have always believed . .
..
you are certifiably CRAZY!!

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 03:44:15 GMT, "David Cohen"
wrote:


"David" wrote
"John M. Williams" wrote
"David" wrote:
wrote:
Greetings

I realize this is a weights group and hope this post may not be too
inappropriate. (I have seen posted on this group numerous references
to inversion tables.) This is not technically a cross-post, as I've
waited over the weekend for responses from the
alt.support.chronic-pain
group I originally posted to.

I'd like to buy an inversion table but am having difficulty finding
enough reviews to be able to make any sort
of informed decision about which one to get.

I did find a handful of reviews at epinions.com, and they were
helpful,
but 5
opinions on two different tables is hardly enough for me. Has anyone
seen any
other site online that has more user reviews?

There are two basic systems of inversion that you can do at home on a
piece
of equipment.
Ones where you clamp by your ankles - these are basically crap and are
not
effective.

No, David. We have been through this before. You just don't like
standard inversion tables. I challenged you to come up with something
in the literature which supported your claim, and you couldn't. All
you could say is that you talked to a PT who liked 90/90 inversion
better, and you thought it was better for feeble elderly people.

A couple of studies have shown 90/90 inversion to be effective. Many
more studies support the effectiveness and safe use of standard
inversion tables amongst normotensive people with spinal issues. So
your claim that they are "basically crap and are not effective" is, at
best, uninformed.

It seems that your personal prejudices in medical matters are really
shining through these days.

For effective traction there has to be enough downward force - the
standard
inversion table only allows inversion at a 45 deg angle - that is stated
in
the users manuals for these machines - the reason you are limited to 45
degrees is because of the how the clamp works around your ankles. If the
angle is greater then constriction of circulation occurs and the whole
process becomes dangerous and counter productive. The sort of machine that
we like here is called Bioflex
http://www.onlyfitness.com.au/fixmyback.htm

Actually the old and feeble would find this difficult - (I don;t know
where
you got that from that I made a reference to 'old and feeble')

The benefit of the Bioflex is that you hang by your upper legs - you can
get max traction and it basically only hits your spine - plus you can
exercise in a safe way with legs bent - for doing ab crunches and back
extensions which the other machines don;t allow.

Inverted crunches are completely safe. You are confusion the anatomy of
supine sit-ups with straight legs with free-hanging inversion.

Without exercise you are
generally wasting your time doing inversion therapy.

Everyone with lumbar-sacral or sacro-iliac compressions would disagree with
you.

d
i
v
a
D


A very inventive signature given the subject matter!! ;o)

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 05:08:01 GMT, "David"
wrote:


"David Cohen" wrote in message
link.net...

"David" wrote
"John M. Williams" wrote
"David" wrote:
wrote:
Greetings

I realize this is a weights group and hope this post may not be too
inappropriate. (I have seen posted on this group numerous
references
to inversion tables.) This is not technically a cross-post, as I've
waited over the weekend for responses from the
alt.support.chronic-pain
group I originally posted to.

I'd like to buy an inversion table but am having difficulty finding
enough reviews to be able to make any sort
of informed decision about which one to get.

I did find a handful of reviews at epinions.com, and they were
helpful,
but 5
opinions on two different tables is hardly enough for me. Has anyone
seen any
other site online that has more user reviews?

There are two basic systems of inversion that you can do at home on a
piece
of equipment.
Ones where you clamp by your ankles - these are basically crap and are
not
effective.

No, David. We have been through this before. You just don't like
standard inversion tables. I challenged you to come up with something
in the literature which supported your claim, and you couldn't. All
you could say is that you talked to a PT who liked 90/90 inversion
better, and you thought it was better for feeble elderly people.

A couple of studies have shown 90/90 inversion to be effective. Many
more studies support the effectiveness and safe use of standard
inversion tables amongst normotensive people with spinal issues. So
your claim that they are "basically crap and are not effective" is, at
best, uninformed.

It seems that your personal prejudices in medical matters are really
shining through these days.

For effective traction there has to be enough downward force - the
standard
inversion table only allows inversion at a 45 deg angle - that is stated
in
the users manuals for these machines - the reason you are limited to 45
degrees is because of the how the clamp works around your ankles. If the
angle is greater then constriction of circulation occurs and the whole
process becomes dangerous and counter productive. The sort of machine
that
we like here is called Bioflex
http://www.onlyfitness.com.au/fixmyback.htm

Actually the old and feeble would find this difficult - (I don;t know
where
you got that from that I made a reference to 'old and feeble')

The benefit of the Bioflex is that you hang by your upper legs - you
can
get max traction and it basically only hits your spine - plus you can
exercise in a safe way with legs bent - for doing ab crunches and back
extensions which the other machines don;t allow.

Inverted crunches are completely safe. You are confusion the anatomy of
supine sit-ups with straight legs with free-hanging inversion.

Without exercise you are
generally wasting your time doing inversion therapy.

Everyone with lumbar-sacral or sacro-iliac compressions would disagree
with
you.

d
i
v
a
D


I know inverted crunches are safe - I'm saying you can't do them with the
standard bed where you are clamped by your ankles. With the Bioflex type
machine you can do them and also bent legged back extensions. MUCH more
versatile.

Plus in my opinion, to sign your name this way indicates full inversion -
because you seem to prefer the non effectual beds, suggest sign this way


D
a
v
i
d



That's good too!! ;o)

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:56:54 -0500, Dally wrote:

David Cohen wrote:

"Dally" wrote

David Cohen wrote:

I have, as does John, I believe, a non-motorized tilt table that allows
any degree of inversion:

d i v a D d d
i i
v v
a a
D D

And I do the crunches totally inverted, free hanging by my ankles.

Jpegs, please.


Because you support our troops, despite your opinion of the war, NAKED jpeg!

www.geocities.com/sammiesdad/inversion.jpg

Thanks. I appreciate the thrill. But I pictured you as less hairy.
And better hung. But I see why you get along with Lyle so well.


Good response!! ;o)

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:58:35 -0500, John M. Williams
wrote:

Big Bill wrote:

John M. Williams wrote:

wrote:

Greetings

I realize this is a weights group and hope this post may not be too
inappropriate. (I have seen posted on this group numerous references
to inversion tables.) This is not technically a cross-post, as I've
waited over the weekend for responses from the alt.support.chronic-pain
group I originally posted to.

I'd like to buy an inversion table but am having difficulty finding
enough reviews to be able to make any sort
of informed decision about which one to get.

I did find a handful of reviews at epinions.com, and they were helpful,
but 5
opinions on two different tables is hardly enough for me. Has anyone
seen any
other site online that has more user reviews?

That depends on which ones you've seen reviewed. A few of us have
them, but types vary, and you aren't providing much information.

Speaking as a cuddlesome 300lber, I wouldn't bother with one, having
tried a manual version, that wasn't motorised. Which costs bucks.

I don't think I've ever seen a motorized inversion table. Admittedly,
300 pounds is usually the max weight limit of the home models, and I
imagine that your weight might tug mightily at your ankles during full
inversion, though many spinal patients never go to full inversion.
Most inversion tables have a limiting strap to limit the degree of
inversion.

As did mine. I got no benefit from lying at 45 degrees (that I could
see or feel) so I took the strap off and went all they way backwards.
What this means is that one arrives at the end postion with a
tremendous crash that jars throughout. Same when going back to
vertical. Which was uncomfortable and felt dangerous.
Hence the percieved need for gentle and controllable inversion. I
found full inversion very uncomfortable. Really I think that leaning
at rather below the horizontal would be beneficial, leading to greater
inversion as one got used to it. I couldn't stand the crashing about
though so I stopped. I was way too heavy for it.

BB
--
www.kruse.co.uk
home of SEO that's shiny!
--

"John HUDSON" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 03:44:15 GMT, "David Cohen"
wrote:


"David" wrote
"John M. Williams" wrote
"David" wrote:
wrote:
Greetings

[.....]

The benefit of the Bioflex is that you hang by your upper legs - you can
get max traction and it basically only hits your spine - plus you can
exercise in a safe way with legs bent - for doing ab crunches and back
extensions which the other machines don;t allow.

Inverted crunches are completely safe. You are confusion the anatomy of
supine sit-ups with straight legs with free-hanging inversion.

Without exercise you are
generally wasting your time doing inversion therapy.

Everyone with lumbar-sacral or sacro-iliac compressions would disagree
with
you.

d
i
v
a
D


A very inventive signature given the subject matter!! ;o)

You shouldn't encourage him!

"John HUDSON" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 05:08:01 GMT, "David"
wrote:


"David Cohen" wrote in message
link.net...

"David" wrote
"John M. Williams" wrote
"David" wrote:

[......]

i
v
a
D


I know inverted crunches are safe - I'm saying you can't do them with the
standard bed where you are clamped by your ankles. With the Bioflex type
machine you can do them and also bent legged back extensions. MUCH more
versatile.

Plus in my opinion, to sign your name this way indicates full
nversion -
because you seem to prefer the non effectual beds, suggest sign this way


D
a
v
i
d



That's good too!! ;o)

Some paramedic gave me the idea

All

Thanks for your remarks. This is obviously a very active, lively and
supportive group and I very much appreciate your immediate and extensive
responses! I think I came to the right place. ;-)

For background, I suffered a ruptured L5-S1 disc a year ago October (in the
normal course of work as a sailmaker and rigger of sailboats), subsequently
undergoing a microendoscopic discectomy to relieve pressure on the primary
right leg nerve. At this point the disc is completely degenerated, the
adjacent vertebral surfaces are now bearing upon one another and the associated
nerves cause pain whenever I move incorrectly or sit or stand for periods of
time without moving. I will have an artificial disc replacement procedure done
as soon as the FDA approves the one I have chosen (ProDisc), but in the
meantime (possibly as long as 6-8 months) I'm dealing with pain and would
rather invest in other avenues of relief besides drugs so I can continue to
work and sleep more normally.

I must currently do at least an hour of exercise a day (and stay fairly mobile
all day) just to stay relatively pain free, but the pain is increasing and if I
skip a day or don't do the full hour I pay the next day. I do
stretching/flexibility and back-strengthening exercises, 20 minutes on the
stationary bike and 30 minutes powerwalk, just to feel almost human. Multiple
intra-spinal steroid shots have given little or no relief, but I am learning
better posture and lifting technique! :-)

In my original post I was referring to the portable, non-motorized inversion
tables which have a collapsible, A-style-frame that supports a tilting flat
surface for the upper torso and extension bar with apparatus to restrain the
feet. This table has adjustability for speed and balance when rotating the
support surface to the inverted position, multiple (or infinite) degree of
inversion capabilities (depending on model) and restraining strap to prevent
over-inversion. Most models come with simple foot/ankle restraint bars, padded
for comfort, but several have extra options, including ankle boots (which seem
to offer more comfort) and extended/curved handles to bolt on at the apex of
the frame, perhaps to allow new users to regain an upright position if they
haven't adjusted the balance correctly. Prices (USD) range from $150 to over
$400 for home use models. The better ones appear to be available on eBay for
something over $225. So far in my research the model that seems to have the
most positive feedback and appears to be the best built for the money is the
Teeter Hang Ups F5000.

Approximately 75% of the personal comments I have read in various forums about
the efficacy of inversion therapy are positive, with the negative coming from
overweight users or those who may have less than well-designed equipment or
tried door-hanging equipment rather than tables. Many have claimed permanent,
long-term relief from spinal problems (in addition to a plethora of other,
non-structual-connected physical issues) as well as other interesting, positive
side effects. I’m not jumping on this bandwagon assuming anything other than
a way to get some temporary relief a few times a day (working out of my home
has it’s advantages). I know my disc will not magically regrow itself at
this point, especially since this was a rupture rather than a herniation and
the disc shows up black on all films. I’ll be perfectly satisfied just to
make it to the operating table and a new robotic disc in a few months without
disabling pain.

The Bioflex unit looks like exactly what I’d like to get, in that it is
simpler and quicker to enter/exit than the ankle-suspension units and would
give only the traction I’m looking for, i.e., spinal column, without needless
concerns about ankle or knee joints or circulation issues. Unfortunately, this
unit appears to be somewhat overpriced (compared to more complicated
ankle-support units), even in Australia, and doesn’t seem to be exported at
the moment. If a US manufacturer came up with a similar unit I’d be
interested. I’m sure shipping costs from Down Under would be prohibitive.

As several of you appear to own and use inversion tables, I’d appreciate
hearing your individual takes on the make/model you currently use (including
the Bioflex) and whether you have had a good or bad results or experience with
it or others. I’m also interested in specifics on what I should be looking
for or watching out for in construction and design details.

For the record, the intent with my original post was to locate any site which
had reviews of various units so I could compare them prior to purchase. So far
I’ve only found the one (epinions.com).

"RC SAILS" wrote in message
...
All

Thanks for your remarks. This is obviously a very active, lively and
supportive group and I very much appreciate your immediate and extensive
responses! I think I came to the right place. ;-)

For background, I suffered a ruptured L5-S1 disc a year ago October (in
the
normal course of work as a sailmaker and rigger of sailboats),
subsequently
undergoing a microendoscopic discectomy to relieve pressure on the primary
right leg nerve. At this point the disc is completely degenerated, the
adjacent vertebral surfaces are now bearing upon one another and the
associated
nerves cause pain whenever I move incorrectly or sit or stand for periods
of
time without moving. I will have an artificial disc replacement procedure
done
as soon as the FDA approves the one I have chosen (ProDisc), but in the
meantime (possibly as long as 6-8 months) I'm dealing with pain and would
rather invest in other avenues of relief besides drugs so I can continue
to
work and sleep more normally.

I must currently do at least an hour of exercise a day (and stay fairly
mobile
all day) just to stay relatively pain free, but the pain is increasing and
if I
skip a day or don't do the full hour I pay the next day. I do
stretching/flexibility and back-strengthening exercises, 20 minutes on the
stationary bike and 30 minutes powerwalk, just to feel almost human.
Multiple
intra-spinal steroid shots have given little or no relief, but I am
learning
better posture and lifting technique! :-)

In my original post I was referring to the portable, non-motorized
inversion
tables which have a collapsible, A-style-frame that supports a tilting
flat
surface for the upper torso and extension bar with apparatus to restrain
the
feet. This table has adjustability for speed and balance when rotating
the
support surface to the inverted position, multiple (or infinite) degree of
inversion capabilities (depending on model) and restraining strap to
prevent
over-inversion. Most models come with simple foot/ankle restraint bars,
padded
for comfort, but several have extra options, including ankle boots (which
seem
to offer more comfort) and extended/curved handles to bolt on at the apex
of
the frame, perhaps to allow new users to regain an upright position if
they
haven't adjusted the balance correctly. Prices (USD) range from $150 to
over
$400 for home use models. The better ones appear to be available on eBay
for
something over $225. So far in my research the model that seems to have
the
most positive feedback and appears to be the best built for the money is
the
Teeter Hang Ups F5000.

Approximately 75% of the personal comments I have read in various forums
about
the efficacy of inversion therapy are positive, with the negative coming
from
overweight users or those who may have less than well-designed equipment
or
tried door-hanging equipment rather than tables. Many have claimed
permanent,
long-term relief from spinal problems (in addition to a plethora of other,
non-structual-connected physical issues) as well as other interesting,
positive
side effects. I'm not jumping on this bandwagon assuming anything other
than
a way to get some temporary relief a few times a day (working out of my
home
has it's advantages). I know my disc will not magically regrow itself at
this point, especially since this was a rupture rather than a herniation
and
the disc shows up black on all films. I'll be perfectly satisfied just to
make it to the operating table and a new robotic disc in a few months
without
disabling pain.

The Bioflex unit looks like exactly what I'd like to get, in that it is
simpler and quicker to enter/exit than the ankle-suspension units and
would
give only the traction I'm looking for, i.e., spinal column, without
needless
concerns about ankle or knee joints or circulation issues. Unfortunately,
this
unit appears to be somewhat overpriced (compared to more complicated
ankle-support units), even in Australia, and doesn't seem to be exported
at
the moment. If a US manufacturer came up with a similar unit I'd be
interested. I'm sure shipping costs from Down Under would be prohibitive.

As several of you appear to own and use inversion tables, I'd appreciate
hearing your individual takes on the make/model you currently use
(including
the Bioflex) and whether you have had a good or bad results or experience
with
it or others. I'm also interested in specifics on what I should be
looking
for or watching out for in construction and design details.

For the record, the intent with my original post was to locate any site
which
had reviews of various units so I could compare them prior to purchase.
So far
I've only found the one (epinions.com).

Your comments about back machines are valid. My company actually designed
the Bioflex unit and we began manufacturing it in Australia 12 years ago.
Just recently we started making it under licence in China so as to be able
to export it world wide economically. There is a Canadian distributor at
the moment - none in the USA at this stage. I can arrange for you to get one
from Toronto at dealer cost. Suggest you reply to my private address

"David" wrote:

Your comments about back machines are valid. My company actually designed
the Bioflex unit and we began manufacturing it in Australia 12 years ago.

Hooboy! There's the hook. So, in reality, you're a spammer, correct?

First you blast Brink for criticizing physicians, only to later reveal
your prejudice: you son is a physician.

Now you blast inversion tables, without any scientific evidence to
back up your claims that they are "crap and are not effective," as
well as your claims that they are "dangerous and counter productive"
at full inversion. Only at the end of this thread do you reveal that
YOUR COMPANY produces the alternative 90/90 unit that you favor.

You're just full of surprises!